To Change, Or Not?

[PGA07]

I am looking for some advise from those of you who have made the career change and those that are thinking about it.

My present situation is as follows:

I started a new job in February of this year, in an industry that I have been in for the past 4 years. This was basically a lateral move, with an increase in pay.

The job is a sales position in the custom housing market, which as we all know really blows right now. Despite this, I have a guaranteed base of $50,000 on January 01, 2009 with a very real posibility of increasing the guaranteed base to $75,000 on January 01, 2010. When factoring in commissions, I should be well into the six figure mark by 2010, even if the housing market remains in its present condition.

With that being said, I am not completely happy with the type of job it is. However, I am not completely fed up with it either. I guess in terms of happiness, I am in the middle. The fact that I more or less make my own schedule and can have plenty of time to do hobbies is attractive and part of what makes me happy with the position. I also work from my home office 3 or 4 days a week which is nice.

I was bit by the flying bug as a child and am now ready to dive full well into the career change. I have the flight school, I have the inside info. on the industry (thanks to JC) and I have the desire. The decision has to be made by me and I understand this, however, "here's what I would do" from others always helps support a decision (regardless of whether or not the answer contains flying).

Personally, I am in a serious relationship, with no children and ALL debt will be eliminated by the end of this year. I guess you can say that I will be free to fly and go where the jobs are. The decision is a tough one and I know that there are plenty of others who have gone through it or are thinking about it and I welcome all input.

I just question how happy I will be as a career pilot early on while I am making the entry level pay that I will (because I am aware that the newness will ware off). Long term, I think I may make more as a pilot, while working less. I know there are no guarantees in aviation, but there are no guarantees in any job any more. I will end here as this is long enough.

I thank all of you in advance for your insight.

[bike21]

Originally Posted by PGA07

The fact that I more or less make my own schedule and can have plenty of time to do hobbies is attractive and part of what makes me happy with the position. I also work from my home office 3 or 4 days a week which is nice.

Ultimately, you will decide what is right for you. Your current situation with a flexible schedule and the ability to work at home is my dream job to be honest. I am envious! I would kill for the ability to stay local and ride my bike to work everyday and work from home when I need to. Now, that said I do really enjoy my actual job (when I work) but right now I am commuting to reserve and not working very much. My everyday QOL factor is basically nil at the moment.

Things will change, and I will be based back home in DEN hopefully this year and will eventually have a nice schedule again. For me, QOL is the most important factor - not big money, big airplanes, cool trips, etc. Those things are nice don't get me wrong, but I will not trade them for never seeing my wife or being able to play outside. It sounds like you have a good thing going right now with almost all your debt paid off (far from it here) and a flexible schedule, which sounds pretty darn good.

Some folks define their lives by their careers, some by hobbies, some by family, etc. If you really like the current QOL of life you have now, you should ask yourself a few questions...

- am I willing to relocate and not commute?
- do I love where I live currently?
- am I willing to commute and lose potentailly several days off a month?
- how long should it take me to attain the right position/aircraft/domicile/schedule to attain my current QOL?
- is that time frame worth it?
- how much of your savings will you have to dig into to get started in this career?
- will you have to go back into debt?

Not trying to dissuade you, this is certainly a fun career and I can't think of too many other things I would rather be doing. However there are times when you have to sacrifice a lot of things that mean the world to you. For me, I define my life by family/friends & recreation. And recently I haven't had much time for either. That will change (I hope) but if it doesn't I would trade jobs with you in a heartbeat.

[PGA07]

I hear what you are saying bike..... I have asked myself several of those questions.

Do I love where I live? No, that is one of the things that is attractive about an aviation career, the travel.

Willing to commute? Perhaps. I would still probably end up with more guaranteed days off commuting than I have now.

Time Frame? I figure 5 years to go from zero time to an entry level position in a 135 or 91 operation. That is the direction I would intend to go.

Is the time frame worth it? Not sure and probably would not know unless I made the change.

Debt? The plan would be to work the current position since it is so flexible and pay as I go or put money on an account. I would avoid the loans at all costs. The longer time frame to complete the training would be worth not having to worry about those outrageous loan payments.

The thing is, if I do not do it, I will probably always regret it. If I do do it, I doubt I will ever wonder "what if I stayed at my old position."

[bike21]

You have certainly thought this stuff out, which is great to see. Some guys/gals can commute and get along just fine, we have a few here at JC that do and seem to tolerate it. However, I happen to be in the anti-commuting crowd

I hope my earlier post didn't come off as negative - at the time I was sitting at MDW (flights were too full out for DEN-ORD) after having commuted in (4am wake up) then had to take the trains (2 of them) over to ORD only to have my first round trip canceled (lose pay since I am on reserve) so in the end I could have slept in and caught a later flight. Yep, it is one of those less than stellar days in the airline business.

Probably not the best day to give out career advice

However, you seem to have a good plan and realistic goals. However I would say you could get that 91/135 job a lot sooner than you think. Great plan staying employed and flying part time to earn your ratings. Ok, time for some more people watching...good luck with whichever path you choose!

[Doug Taylor]

Where do you want to be in five years? Ten? Fifteen?

Maybe it's the Kronenbourg I had with dinner, but for me doing what I'm doing is the best career since sliced bread.

Beer buzz on in Paris after a fantastic dinner or knee deep in a board meeting talking about FY08's sales trends... Simple answer for me, but you have to evaluate your goals and do what you gotta do to reach them.

[bike21]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Maybe it's the Kronenbourg I had with dinner, but for me doing what I'm doing is the best career since sliced bread.

Thanks for bringing an up-beat tone to the thread Most days I am happy go lucky, but my recent lifestyle/QOL has me pushing my tolerance for all-things airline.

I certainly have my days when I would answer this thread..."heck yes!" Especially when I am on the beach in Santa Barbara, hiking in Missoula or riding bikes in downtown Eugene! However, I still think that commuting is for the birds

[PGA07]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Where do you want to be in five years? Ten? Fifteen?

Maybe it's the Kronenbourg I had with dinner, but for me doing what I'm doing is the best career since sliced bread.

Beer buzz on in Paris after a fantastic dinner or knee deep in a board meeting talking about FY08's sales trends... Simple answer for me, but you have to evaluate your goals and do what you gotta do to reach them.

I hear where you are coming from! The fact that I can probably make just as much in aviation as I can in my sales position is quite attractive. Especially since my days off will be guaranteed and I will not have to worry about check voice mail while wading a river, sitting in a tree or teeing up!

I think the biggest factor will be when I see my positioin in about 12 months. Would it be hard to give up six figures? Sure, if I get there. If I am not there.............the decision will be much easier. I can tolerate the low pay for a few years. I figure flying 135 or 91 will see me earning $50,000 within 2 years of starting it!

I will keep all updated and I thank you for the insight.

[PGA07]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Where do you want to be in five years? Ten? Fifteen?

Maybe it's the Kronenbourg I had with dinner, but for me doing what I'm doing is the best career since sliced bread.

Beer buzz on in Paris after a fantastic dinner or knee deep in a board meeting talking about FY08's sales trends... Simple answer for me, but you have to evaluate your goals and do what you gotta do to reach them.

Forgot to add................if you have not made the trip yet, the Eiffel (SP) Tower at night is beautiful. I have some pics from the top when I was there 8 years ago!

[TexasFlyer]

Real life experience (mine):

* Likelong dream to fly. But no money since had to do it all alone.

* Took out a lot of college loans and worked part time.

* College degree in 1996, with lots of debt.

* Went from accoutning at a CPA firm making only arond $50k to a sales related career in 1999 where made that $50k my first year and nealry doubled it my second (I disliked accounting, even though I enjoyed in in college... the real world sucked).

* In 2001 I realized I hate all jobs. I want to still fly. So I begin to pay off debt at a very high rate (well over $6k to $8k a month chipping away at college loans and car loans and motorcycle loans and such).

* Made well over $100k in the first 9 months of 2001.

* Was almost debt free by 9-11-2001 and was going to save up around $50k in cash to begin flight training in 2002.

* 9-11 happened! It wiped out our business and I only made around $40k-ish in 2002.

* My rent alone was over $2,000 month as I lived in Boston (and in Taxachusetts my $40k gave me less than $2k take home so you can already see a major problem... oh, and my apartment was only a one bedroom crappy brownstone downtown at that time!).

* By mid 2003, I ended up with $86,000 (yes, that's 3 zeros!) of credit card debt as it's the only way I was able to stay a float in Boston for me after 9-11 and business was still tanked up that way. My credit card line was running dry...

* Mid 2003 I knew I had an emergency situation to I took a risk. I still hated my job. I still wanted to fly. My motivation was in the dumps since I was pretty depressed about life at that point. And there was no end in sight since the economy was bust and that was beyond my control. But I needed to figure out how to get it all back together and get back on track for flying.

* In July 2003, I pulled myself together and took the gamble. I crabbed my last few grand of credit and moved to Texas where it was cheap to live and took my sales business there.

* Focused and business took off. The economy in Texas was 100 times better than Boston. I still hated my job though, but at least I seen things getting better.

* By Janaury 2007 I was debt free again. I also had my one toy I wanted to get back that I lost after 9-11; new harley. I knew I needed reliable transport if I was going to be a poor pilot, so I got a new truck. And all other debt paid off. I was also making well over $100k a year again (clearly to pay off all the debt I had just a few short years ago as at the climax it was near $100k in credit card debt as I was maxed out on all credit available to me!).

* I had a goal to save $50k in cash by July 1st. Quit that awful job. And go fly. Well, I didn't quite save the $50k, but got close enough. I did quit that job I hated. But at least I know I have one heck of a history I can fall back on if ever needed (I hope not needed though).

* In July 2007 I took a well needed vacation. In August I started at Falcon Aviation. As of today I am 1-2 hours away from my commercial certificate (check ride is Thursday).

* Oh, yes. I'm broke. That $40k-ish in cash went quick. I could have saved more, but I learned my lesson. You can't predict the future, so don't get greedy. Once you feel okay, just make your move. What if something would have wiped me out again or timing would get messed up. So I saved what I felt was enough and quit that job and went for the life long dream.

* Oh yes, did I say I'm broke now? Strange thing is, I may be broke but I'M HAPPIER THAN EVER. I would do nothing else.

PS - Trust me, this is the short version of huge decisions and struggles. I did have to break off a great relationship with my now X to move to Atlanta to pursue my dream. But my flying dream was in my head before she was. And she knew about it (just did not beleive I would actually do it). My parents, even though I'm 35 years old, were very upset thinking I lost my mind to walk away from a job where by 50 I would have retired and never had to work again. Yes, but I don't think I would have been able to live 15 more years with all the stress and misery that job brought me. My X, well she's engaged to someone else now (yeah, she moves qiuck). My parents, well they are over it. They know I am happier than ever and they realize it's easy for me to go back to my old life making money if I needed to. So many decisions. So many choices along the way. But in the end, the best choice was simply seeing a plan come together that got in into the cockpit.

Feel free to PM me if you wany more details. Sounds like I was in your shoes a few years ago.

Don't dream it, just do it!



PS - the quote I made famous and how I convinved people I would be okay after making what so many thought was a stupid decision (I actually have those people now rethinking their own lives!),
"You can always go back to where you come from in life, but if you do not take the chance and pursue your dream, you miss the opportunity to truly be happy... don't let the last words you ever speak be, ' I wish I...'"

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by PGA07

Forgot to add................if you have not made the trip yet, the Eiffel (SP) Tower at night is beautiful. I have some pics from the top when I was there 8 years ago!

The lights are spectacular!

I've been to France a zillion times so if it's here, I've probably done it twice. Except for the catacombs... Down for refurbishment

Speaking of that... Time to make the donuts.

[kevin7720]

PGA07,

I enjoyed reading about your situation and I sometimes feel that I can relate. I have had the flying bug when I was in college in 1989-2002 and attended an aviation university. I came to the realization that I had second thoughts about taking a loan out for private - cfii. I just couldn't understand at the time how I would ever pay back the loan. I had enough difficulty paying for my college. I tried to finish my education with another major but everything that I tried didn't interest me. In an effort to find myself I decided to take a break and try some work experience. Well a few years later I was hired as a professional firefighter. I have been lucky I think for the opportunity for my profession and to be paid very well with medical and a pension.

When I entered my profession it was purely for paying for my aviation and maybe someday fly for a living. I have been in my profession now for 14 years and for the most part been content with my path. I have once again gotten the flying bug and am flying at the local airport nearing completion of my private. I have read posts on JC for almost 2 years now and I think I have a pretty good idea what flying for a living would be like. If I had any advice to give you I would follow your dreams and when your dreams change then you can always get another sales job. I think that I would rather realize that the flying lifestyle wasn't what I expected it to be then go back to the sales job, rather than going through your life wondering what it would be like if you followed your dreams. If it is truly your dream then I imagine paying your dues will not be difficult for you.

For myself I do enjoy my profession and it does offer a very good feeling of security knowing that I will always have my job as long as I am dedicated and make good choices. My goal in my life is to turn my love of aviation into a hobby that will support itself with a cfi certificate or flying charters part-time. If I am lucky maybe flying floats in the Puget Sound! I am at an age now that being away from my family 4 days a week and possibly commuting and staying in a crash pad doesn't sound that appealing. I am really not that excited about the earning 1/4th wages of what I am earning now. I have also had the opportunity to talk with pilots that have been furloughed a few times and living in an RV close to the airport because of commuting. Then I have a couple of friends that fly for FEDEX and seem to be very happy with how things have worked out.

I wish you luck in your decision but I know that you probably won't know if you made the right choice until your nearing retirement. Such is life, nothing is guaranteed!

Kevin

[PGA07]

All of the kind words and insight are REALLY appreciated! As you all know, a life changing decision is never an easy one. Ultimately, it will depend on where I am with my current career at this time next year. Even at that point, I will only be 30. Given my original 5 year plan, that still gives me 30+ years of flying (if I want to do it that long and providing I still can hold my medical).

One thing that I do know, I would want to retire from my present job no later than 50. If I am still able to fly after 50, I think I would. Only time will tell, but in the end, I really feel that I will pursue the aviation goals that I have.

I am sure that in aviation, as in all jobs, there are s&^*y ones and there are phenominal ones. Someones view on the career they have choosen can go either way depending on which side of the career they are on. In the end, as long as we are happy, I think that is all that matters.

[notawannabee]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

The lights are spectacular!

I've been to France a zillion times so if it's here, I've probably done it twice. Except for the catacombs... Down for refurbishment

Speaking of that... Time to make the donuts.

[notawannabee]

catacombs are nice on those hot summer days

[bigs]

Hey PGA07,

Saw your post here and figured my opinion had relevance so thought I'd chime in. Bike21 and I are good friends (haven't spoken in a while, unfortunately, but I can vouch for the fact that he's definitely someone whose opinion you should take seriously). We started off in a similar situation, have known each other for quite a while (from instrument training on) and ended up taking pretty divergent paths. His led him to where you are dreaming to be, and mine led me to a place similar to where you are now.

As Bike said, ultimately the choice is yours. Believe me, either way you will have benefits and you will have consequences. I'm a few years older than you (35), also in a sales career (healthcare), doing very well financially, and I hate going to work every morning. I've finally clawed my way out of the flight-training debt that's been hanging over my head for the last six years and am still wondering what is the best way to go. I'm a CFI with a standing offer to instruct locally, am doing it part-time, and am having a hell of a time deciding whether or not to make the leap. Right now, my free time is my own and I love where I live. I've got an awesome wife who has a nice job and a couple of great dogs, and we have a good house with a big backyard for them to run around in that I'm not willing to put on the market for a $25,000 a year gig flying RJs out of Cleveland. My schedule is M-F 9-5 with very infrequent overnight travel, and I'm not sure that I want to give that up.

However, if your main concern is the stability of an airline career, I would urge you to take a look at the "stability" of a sales career as well. You're pretty much as good as your last quarter, and when you talk about a guaranteed salary on January 1, 2010 I've got bad news for you. Unless you have a very different sales job than any that I've experienced in my last 8 years in sales, nothing is guaranteed about January 1, 2010...or January 1, 2009...or the month after your last bad month. I wouldn't put any more faith in the promises of sales management than I would airline management (and my experience in sales has been very successful). It all comes down to money my friend...doesn't matter what industry you're in.

If I could trade places with Bike at this moment, I don't know if I'd do it or not. If I could trade places with Doug even farther up the ladder it may be a different story. However, I don't know that I'm willing to give up what I've got now and make the sacrifices that both of them have made to get to where they're at. Success in this journey is far from guaranteed (sales or aviation). For me the question really does come down to is the journey enough of a reward, and do you have to sacrifice everything else during the journey to get the reward. I'm hanging tight right now, as I'm a look before you leap type and what leaping into aviation looks like at the moment scares the hell out of me. We all have to decide for ourselves, and I hope that your decision works out for the best for you. That being said, I'm going to eject now before I violate Doug's "4-paragraph" rule.

Best of Luck,
Bigs

[PGA07]

bigs:

Great information that you have listed. I guess the decision to jump from any career into aviation is a lot more difficult to make than jumping from one career to another career (that is not aviation). As you said, there is sooo much in all careers that is uncertain and like you, I am not happy with my present "working" position.

That being said, it sure is nice to work from home 3 or 4 days a week, take a day off to hunt, fish or golf. Sometimes, I feel that it is worth the BS to have the freedom that I currently enjoy. In the end, I will have to decide for myself and presently, I may be content doing what I am, in order to enjoy what I truely love.

We shall see!

[bartman]

Great post Bigs. Adds some good insight to the decision making process.