Another career changer

[coreylaing]

I have been reading threads on the site for about a month now, but haven't posted anything, so here goes. I am 39 and am making a career change like a lot of you out there. I have been self-employed for the past 9 years in two different businesses, one I had as many as 20 employees, and for the past 4 years have had no employees flipping houses with my brother. I have made an OK living, but I realized that if I keep doing what I am doing and still be in the same situation in 25 years. And the manual labor is getting old. I got my PPL back in Oct. 96 just for fun, but had been inactive until March of this year, when I heard of the crunch need for pilots. So I started my IFR training at the local FBO, but got discouraged in a hurry due to lack of flight time and the revolving door of instructors. So knowing the importance of multi time, I started to look around. ATP offers 160 hours, all ratings, apartment, and a FTD for $50K. To get 160 hours of multi time at the local FBO would cost me $38,400 and taken who knows how long, so I decided that it was worth the extra money to go to ATP. I start in SAC on Oct. 22. I am really looking forward to being "immersed" in aviation, although being away from my family for 3 months is going to suck. I am somewhat concerned about what I read about pilots wages. I hopefully assume right that the first few years as a FO are bad, but are better once you make captain and have a few years under your belt. Anyone out there with a few years experience and making a good living care to share what they are making? Sorry this is so long, and yes, my username is my name. Thanks for your input.

[skidz]

Hi. You've come to the right place.

[reefteaser]

Sounds similar to my story. I fly as a hobby for a while, then decided I had enough of salary, benefits, retirement, schedule, and all that crap and became an instuctor at 39. I did that for two years, then got into charter, flying piston twins, then King Airs, and now Lear Jets. I'm now 45. I may have taken a slower route, but I've made money along the way, had some great experiences, and learned a lot. I've also worked my a$$ off. It's still a job. When people meet me and find out what I do, they think it's some glarmorus lifestyle. I just tell them it's the hardest work I've ever enjoyed.
I've worked with a couple of people that went to ATP. All of them sound very similar, in that they got their certificates, but most of the learning was on the job. Sounds like the place is a good value for the money, but VERY fast paced, and not for everyone.
Going the FBO route got my networking started early and definately helped me, but all the multi time at ATP is a great resume builder. Think carefully about the next step after ATP, because recouping your investment will take a long time if you go to the airlines.

[Hernandezcfi]

I think I made out ok so far. I chucked my Bail bond business I was making about $80k a year. I spent about $30k for all of my ratings one lesson at a time with no loans (private thru multi-engine instructor) at a local FBO and got a job at a flight school and closed my business. I have been working as a flight instructor for about a year and 1/2 and have earned over $40k so my investment has been recouped and then some. It took about 3 years from start to now. I'm ready for the airlines with over 1200 total time and 190 multi BUT...I can't afford to. I have three kids so unless they wake up and raise the pay I won't be airline flying for a long time. Corporate and even air taxi and charter pay a heck of alot better so that's where I will be for now. My point is, going straight to a regional after spending $50k is no way to get a return on your investment...in the short term anyway.

[dc3flyer]

Welcome abaord!!!!!!!!!

[coreylaing]

I have 4 boys, so I definitely need to make good decisions. What I really can't understand is how the airlines get away with paying such low wages. I would think that a highly trained professional in charge of a lot of people's lives would be well compensated, not to mention the fact that the economic law of supply and demand would drive wages for pilots up right now.

[Hernandezcfi]

The problem is there is still too long of a line of newbies who live with mom who are willing to work for free to get in the right seat. Only when there is a shortage of Captain material will there be an increase of wages. ...and even then, they will resist as long as possible to increase pay. That is the last resort! As long as they have a qualified captain on board, management probably does not care about how little experience FO's have!

[reefteaser]

Yeah, the airline route never made sense to me. Maybe if I started at 25. I also like not going to the same place everytime I fly, and it doesn't hurt that charter customers can, at times, be good tippers.
OH NO! Could I have just posted some flame bait? I got into it a few months ago on this board over the tipping thing.

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by coreylaing

I have 4 boys, so I definitely need to make good decisions. What I really can't understand is how the airlines get away with paying such low wages. I would think that a highly trained professional in charge of a lot of people's lives would be well compensated, not to mention the fact that the economic law of supply and demand would drive wages for pilots up right now.

The fact is flying isn't romantic as people make it out to be. Regional airline pay is terrible we all agree, so don't change jobs. Fly for fun if you like flying. Why go into god knows how much debt($50k+) to get a $23K/yr job? Also with 4 kids and a family good luck trying to have a normal family life. There are things like commuting and so forth that you may have to factor in and say is it really worth it? Can you wife support you indefinitely? Will that cause problems at home? Is it all really worth saying look at me Im a pilot over? Don't whine about the rules to the game because you want to start late. No one goes to med school in there 40's. The same goes here. Don't blame the kids/guys/gals that know what they want to do early in life. They can start off at a lower wage because they don't have the same expense i.e. kids,house, etc. Also as an FO you aren't in charge of people. You're not really in charge of anything thats why 200 hr guys can do it. Also thats why you aren't paid a ton. I don't think $20 is right, but I think anything over $45 at the regional level is to much for an FO. I flew freight for 4 years while the industry shortly after 9/11 blew. I did what I had to to make a real buck($50+).I flew POS planes in POS weather, but thats what it took. When the time was right I made the move and never bitched about the FO pay because that is what I had to do to be a CA and get all the benifits that go along with it.Those are the rules like it or not. So either play by them and hold your tongue or don't come to the party.

[MtnChick]

[quote=WalterSobchak;704160]No one goes to med school in there 40's. The same goes here. quote]

Actually, I know someone who went to med school in her 40's - after her kids were grown. Was in her 50's when she became a dr. Not the norm obviously, but it can be done!

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

The fact is flying isn't romantic as people make it out to be. Regional airline pay is terrible we all agree, so don't change jobs. Fly for fun if you like flying. Why go into god knows how much debt($50k+) to get a $23K/yr job? Also with 4 kids and a family good luck trying to have a normal family life. There are things like commuting and so forth that you may have to factor in and say is it really worth it? Can you wife support you indefinitely? Will that cause problems at home? Is it all really worth saying look at me Im a pilot over? Don't whine about the rules to the game because you want to start late. No one goes to med school in there 40's. The same goes here. Don't blame the kids/guys/gals that know what they want to do early in life. They can start off at a lower wage because they don't have the same expense i.e. kids,house, etc. Also as an FO you aren't in charge of people. You're not really in charge of anything thats why 200 hr guys can do it. Also thats why you aren't paid a ton. I don't think $20 is right, but I think anything over $45 at the regional level is to much for an FO. I flew freight for 4 years while the industry shortly after 9/11 blew. I did what I had to to make a real buck($50+).I flew POS planes in POS weather, but thats what it took. When the time was right I made the move and never bitched about the FO pay because that is what I had to do to be a CA and get all the benifits that go along with it.Those are the rules like it or not. So either play by them and hold your tongue or don't come to the party.

Easy there, killer. I think he was just expressing surprise at the sorry state of compensation - which we all, universally, agree on. No need to chew him out, and I hardly think that what he wrote was bitching.

[LoadMasterC141]

Wow yeah.

I don't think he is complaining, just mentioning that it seems ridiculously low. No need to tee off on him.
Alot of people are amazed at how poorly an airline pilot is paid. Even with big ads in airports, most people have no clue that the airlines start you out at poverty level. Everytime I tell someone my plans to quit my job and be an airline pilot, they make some remark about how rich I will be.

I know of 3 people off-hand that went to med school in their 40's as well.

[WalterSobchak]

Not really chewing anyone out. Those are the Coors Light Cold Hard Facts.

[mooneyguy]

Welcome to the fold my friend! You are not alone here. Im a 39 y/o trying to do the career change thing. Im 1 week away from my IR check ride! Then on to the commercial! I'm doing it the local fbo way! I think if i could afford to go to ATP i would, but the idea of 60k and a huge monthly bill for the next 15 years while im making 20k after getting a regional job...just couldn't do it! When I get done training I will be bill free! It will just take me a little more time to get there!
GOOD LUCK and keep us posted on your progress!

[PGA07]

Originally Posted by WalterSobchak

Not really chewing anyone out. Those are the Coors Light Cold Hard Facts.

Which is why no one that I know of drinks it!


He seems to have a good grasp on the field and is just looking for insight from insiders. That is why JC exists after all!

[Hernandezcfi]

I bet half the kids who started early wish they had a regular 9-5! ...and by the way, some people have no choice but to start late. When I wanted to start flight training, I couldn't even afford to pay attention. It had to wait until I was 30 and had the loot. Loan? Nah...I was young but not stupid.

[coreylaing]

Wow! I really appreciate all the input and advice from everyone. Your input made me do some serious analysis of numbers as well as what I really wanted to do. I have decided that going to ATP at this time is not the best move for me, so the start date on the 22nd is off. I think that I will probably continue to fly for fun and see if I can't find a more lucrative way to spend $50K. Thanks again.