Do it now and borrow - or save for salary sorrow?

[BugSmasher]

A pretty intuative thread title. As another JC noob, I'm curious as to how those of you who've pulled the trigger have done it.

For a prospective career-changer, its clear from reading these boards that commercial aviation is a passion-driven choice for us, but the initial pay stinks (esp. considering the costs of training, responsiblity and risk).

So it seems rational to go lean (e.g. move in w/ parents, or teach ESL in Korea) and wait a year or two after getting a PPL and save, say 40K - to pay for your Inst/Multi/Comm tickets - or even as a safety net during the CFI/RJ FO stages of an aviation career.

Yet - I keep hearing all this "get in now for SENIORITY" talk. Especially from the larger academies.

So, what have your experiences been? If you could revert to the days of your PPL training, what might you have done differently?

If you're taking out a loan, what is your repayment strategy for the first year or two? If you're saving up, how are you going about it?

[Customx]

As you know I'm working in Korea saving up money and avoiding the debt that comes along with taking out a loan. I'm still relatively young, 25, but I do have a sense of urgency to get started with training soon.
I don't understand why people have this "i have to get it now" mentality and then put themselves through a tough situation being $40-50k+ in debt and paying the loan back for 10-15 years.

For those who do not have a college degree yet, I guess taking out a loan might be the only available option.But for those who have finished university it would make the most sense to either continue working for a year or two and save up, or teach ESL in Japan or Korea and come back home able to pay for your training in cash and not have to go into debt.

[cre8flyer]

There will always be jobs for pilots (trend is positive). However, there are so many people passionate about flying that the pay will always be low (simple supply and demand economics)

IMO: It doesn't make sense to rush into it if you can first establish yourself financially (e.g. if you have a degree / a way to earn and save).

IMO: If you're young and have no education and no way to make money anyway. . . go with your passion.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by cre8flyer

There will always be jobs for pilots

If you revisit posts on this board circa 2001-2004... and you will see that there wasn't "always" jobs for pilots.

Like cre8flyer said... the "TREND" is currently positive... just gotta keep that in the back of your mind as you pursue this career. It is most definately "trend" oriented.

Some good advice from the guys above... but just keep an eye on the "trend".

Bob

[Ian J]

I'm a fan of http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...ant-posts.html.

[Katzenjammer]

Find a small charter outfit with a range of equipment that runs an FBO and flight school near a reasonable sized down. Move there. Take an inexpensive apartment and get a job in your current profession. Go out and get a part-time job on nights and weekends at the FBO as lineman or whatever. Let them know you intend to progress through PPL to CFI and then to fly for them. Put the customer first and show the charter company that you are the kind of person they want around.
Be available as safety pilot and other ways to build time.
A company with a range of equipment will have people moving up from within all the time so you have a ladder of progression.
Getting a job as a pilot for many is like starting a car from a slippery surface. At first you have to go slowly and even then you spin your wheels a lot. As things progress you get up more and more speed and eventually you're out racing along on dry pavement.

[PGA07]

Originally Posted by Katzenjammer

Find a small charter outfit with a range of equipment that runs an FBO and flight school near a reasonable sized down. Move there. Take an inexpensive apartment and get a job in your current profession. Go out and get a part-time job on nights and weekends at the FBO as lineman or whatever. Let them know you intend to progress through PPL to CFI and then to fly for them. Put the customer first and show the charter company that you are the kind of person they want around.
Be available as safety pilot and other ways to build time.
A company with a range of equipment will have people moving up from within all the time so you have a ladder of progression.
Getting a job as a pilot for many is like starting a car from a slippery surface. At first you have to go slowly and even then you spin your wheels a lot. As things progress you get up more and more speed and eventually you're out racing along on dry pavement.

Could not have said it better. Subscribes to my theory on this perfectly!

[BugSmasher]

Originally Posted by Katzenjammer

Find a small charter outfit with a range of equipment that runs an FBO and flight school near a reasonable sized down. Move there. Take an inexpensive apartment and get a job in your current profession. Go out and get a part-time job on nights and weekends at the FBO as lineman or whatever. Let them know you intend to progress through PPL to CFI and then to fly for them. Put the customer first and show the charter company that you are the kind of person they want around.
Be available as safety pilot and other ways to build time.
A company with a range of equipment will have people moving up from within all the time so you have a ladder of progression.
Getting a job as a pilot for many is like starting a car from a slippery surface. At first you have to go slowly and even then you spin your wheels a lot. As things progress you get up more and more speed and eventually you're out racing along on dry pavement.

Thanks for your thoughtful input. As a midwesterner, your analogy hits the mark. Here's to traction!

[Jefu]

I am a career changer also. I just went and got my First Class Medical and Student Pilot Cert last week. After I left the Dr's office, I went to speak to the head of the aviation department at the college I am attending. We discussed the fact that I am 39 and how I was going to pay for the aviation degree I was considering. His advice was this:

Every semester take every penny of student loan money I could. Stick all that money in the bank and let it earn interest until the last possible moment. Once I had $40k built up, withdraw the money and do all the flight classes to finish my degree.

The thought of being 43, earning first year pilot income, and being $40k plus in debt almost caused me to give up the dream. Luckily I stopped by my local FBO and chatted with them. It just so happens that they are in need of a CFI. We discussed the idea of them paying for at least part of my CFI training in exchange for working as a CFI for them afterwards. I decided to get a different degree and do my training at the FBO. Cutting costs wherever you can is good. I would much rather take the time to get a good education, get some FI experience under my belt and earn flight hours while getting paid.

[Stratopilot]

Originally Posted by BugSmasher

A pretty intuative thread title. As another JC noob, I'm curious as to how those of you who've pulled the trigger have done it.

For a prospective career-changer, its clear from reading these boards that commercial aviation is a passion-driven choice for us, but the initial pay stinks (esp. considering the costs of training, responsiblity and risk).

So it seems rational to go lean (e.g. move in w/ parents, or teach ESL in Korea) and wait a year or two after getting a PPL and save, say 40K - to pay for your Inst/Multi/Comm tickets - or even as a safety net during the CFI/RJ FO stages of an aviation career.

Yet - I keep hearing all this "get in now for SENIORITY" talk. Especially from the larger academies.

So, what have your experiences been? If you could revert to the days of your PPL training, what might you have done differently?

If you're taking out a loan, what is your repayment strategy for the first year or two? If you're saving up, how are you going about it?

As I tell you on the phone every week, brother. DON"T do what I DID. Rush in to it, and find yourself so far in debt that it's financially impossible to do what you set out to do. Unless you're born with a silver spoon (which both you and I were not), stay as debt free as possible or you're up for some serious heartbreak when pencil hits paper and you find yourself up the creek. Create a 2-5 year plan to get you there, stick to it, and it if doesn't work the way you had hoped, tweak it and carry on. Most of all, sometimes its important just to stop, think, set aside your passion for the job, and come up with a reasonable logical solution, that doesn't involve risking it all. Also, taking a "tactical retreat" and approaching it later can be a wise course of action too. Stay out of debt, take the slow road and you'll be making 1st year FO pay and still be able to live "comfortably". Airplanes will alway fly, and people will always need to get places, and old timers will always retire, take your time...haste make waste, tortoise and hare, yadda yadda yadda, you get my drift.

Best regards

[welle036]

I agree with stratopilot. I got my private and am now holding off on the rest of my training, and working in the meantime. It will hold me back by a little over a year, but the financial stresses added to adapting to a new career just didn't seem worth it at the time. It sucks waiting, but being debt free will most likelty be pretty sweet.

[NW_Pilot]

I borrowed, it sucks, I just recently paid the "interest only" portion of my loan and now I only have $15k left to go. I've been paying on this damn thing for 7 years and I dreaded it every month since my training ended.

On the other hand with the possibility of actually getting a job flying due to the $$$ i've spent it will make every penny worth it. If you can afford it, do it, otherwise put it on the back burner and save, save, save.

[Flying Ninja]

My advice is to save your money and pay for your training in cash. Don't borrow. A year ago I started my pay back at $101,819.82. Today, my balance is at $97,065.15. That included a couple of extra payments against the principle. But otherwise, my monthly is $982.69 at a variable rate of 8.5% over the next 14 years (15 year loan). Today I'm just struggling to work and pay this loan off. No airline job. And I barely have enough money to fly a single piston to stay current.

Moral of the story, save your money, don't go to a flight school like CAPT, and think if you really want to drop all that money with the possibility of not getting a job at the end.

[future777captain]

I did the Korea route. If you teach there for 2 years you will have enough cash in hand for rent and basic private and commercial, considering you do the private and commercial full time and finish in a couple of months. From there it wouldn't be much of a hassle to get the final ratings.

[bike21]

Like others have said already don't go in super debt, i.e. $40k or more. Save money, work, work, work and only take out $15k at most. Try to only use it if you are coming toward the end of your training and need to hammer through the rest of your ratings. You will thank yourself later

[skidz]

Originally Posted by future777captain

I did the Korea route. If you teach there for 2 years you will have enough cash in hand for rent and basic private and commercial, considering you do the private and commercial full time and finish in a couple of months. From there it wouldn't be much of a hassle to get the final ratings.

What is Korea route?

[Customx]

Originally Posted by skidz

What is Korea route?

Look through some of my older posts about teaching English in Korea. Depending on how much teaching experience, education and ambition you have, you can save anywhere from $10-40k/year. You should be able to save at least $15k without working too hard

[welle036]

Its also possible to save 20k+ a year driving truck locally five days a week.

[Customx]

Originally Posted by welle036

Its also possible to save 20k+ a year driving truck locally five days a week.

Can you do that without any experience?

I highly recommend coming over here, but only if you have a 4 year accredited degree. While you're here you also open up the possibility of traveling to Japan, China, Thailand, Singapore, The Philippines, etc..

[welle036]

Yes, I started with no experience. The company I work still hires people with no experience, but they can't even get anyone to apply. I live in Montana though, and it is probably different in other areas. I know there is a shortage of cdl drivers, probably similar to the pilot situation now.

[BugSmasher]

The allure of "going the Korea" route is that (most) of the private English schools in Korea cover housing, 50% medical, and some utilities. As I understand it, the relative lack of expenses *could* result in big savings, depending on the contract and the degree to which it is adhered to by the school.

Unlike my situation here in Chicago, where I earn quite a good living, but by the time I pay my lincoln park rent, flight school expenses, and just general urban living, there's little left over to save for that 200hr chunk of timebuilding - i.e. the Commercial/multi tickets.

Since starting this thread, I've been leaning heavily toward an adventure in Korea once I have my PPL, and I'm grateful to those who have posted to share their experiences and advice.

[milski]

I'm doing it in a somewhat different way than what's suggested here. I used the well paying full time job that I have to finance all the training and did it in mornings/evenings/weekends, it took me about two years but I did not get into any debt because of it. As of now, I'm instructing part time, still working my full time job and saving money. Within a year or two I'll have enough saved money and enough experience to get hired at a 121/135 company and still live comfortably through the first few years. I'm not in a hurry to get there, for me it's more about the journey than about being there now.

[Stratopilot]

Originally Posted by milski

I'm doing it in a somewhat different way than what's suggested here. I used the well paying full time job that I have to finance all the training and did it in mornings/evenings/weekends, it took me about two years but I did not get into any debt because of it. As of now, I'm instructing part time, still working my full time job and saving money. Within a year or two I'll have enough saved money and enough experience to get hired at a 121/135 company and still live comfortably through the first few years. I'm not in a hurry to get there, for me it's more about the journey than about being there now.

Hi Milski,

I'm taking the same approach you are. Although i got my CFI/CFII back in college. Problem is that I have 130K in debt thanks to Riddle. I've decided while i could consolidate, move back in with mom, and still be ok for the first year, I'd rather pay off my debt and have that extra 500 bucks. Unfortunately, since then i've gotten side tracked off of what i originally set out to do those 7 years ago. I'm looking to get back in to instructing after a 3 year absence. I've still been involved in aviation since then so I'm still kind of fresh. I also need to instruct part time because of the full time job I already have. I'm moving to Dallas in 2 weeks, and will have enough money to get back in the saddle. I called Skymates over in Dallas and the person i spoke to told me that instructing part time there was no problem since they have alot of people in the same boat I'm in, as long as my weekends are free there should be no problem according to the voice on the other end of the line. My question for you is...how many billable hours do you do average per week, and how difficult a time did you find it to balance work/instructing/family? Im planning on instructing 2-4 hours on the weekday afterwork, and all day on the weekends. From your experience i'm I over-estimating? I look forward to your response.

AP

[cfii2007]

Perhaps take out the loans, accumulate debt and instruct, while holding a 2nd or 3rd job.

In a year or two you will have enough hours, and have made dent in the debt.

[Bigscrb15]

My route came up kinda unusually. My wife and I moved out of our apartment when our lease ran up and moved into my moms house while waiting the 3 weeks for our new apartment to open up. I planned on gettin loans for flight training, but was denied due to high credit card debt, boat payment, 4wheelers, etc. The wife came up to me the other day and said since we are saving $1200/month by living with my mom we should do that for 1 year and pay off all our debt. When we move out tomorrow our only debt will me my truck and her car. That will save us almost $1000/month in other payments. With that $1000/month I will leep my fulltime job and train at the local FBO for about 2 years. Yeah, it pushed back my schedule by 3 years total, but being 23 I am ok with that. I think I will be happy not to have a $50k debt and it will be worth it.