Flight Instructor--and may eventually stop piloting

[E_Dawg]

http://jetcareers.com/ubbthreads/pos...mp;Board=UBB22

[MikeD]

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[Who would like to admit that they either couldn't cut it, or were too much of a moron to get on here.

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Couldn't cut the academy lifestyle, or the training? I couldn't imagine it being any more difficult to cut it at Pan-Am as it would be anywhere else, pending the student does their part. There's never any free rides.

[Mavmb]

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[Who would like to admit that they either couldn't cut it, or were too much of a moron to get on here.

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Couldn't cut the academy lifestyle, or the training? I couldn't imagine it being any more difficult to cut it at Pan-Am as it would be anywhere else, pending the student does their part. There's never any free rides.

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The need potential students to believe that the academy lifestyle consists of career pilot training that is only cut out for a "elite few" or the "best of the best" to trick customers into paying 10 of thousands extra for their school. That's why they personally attack and insult anyone who doesn't like the academy; just a marketing ploy but hopefully it reveals what used car salesmen they are.

[Tired]

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[Who would like to admit that they either couldn't cut it, or were too much of a moron to get on here.

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Couldn't cut the academy lifestyle, or the training? I couldn't imagine it being any more difficult to cut it at Pan-Am as it would be anywhere else, pending the student does their part. There's never any free rides.

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Yeah, you kinda misunderstood what I meant. When I was writing it I was thinking about how some of the people here aren't the sharpest tools in the shed and you'd have to sink pretty low not to be able to hack it. Grads from academy's aren't necessarily any better or worse then FBO trained pilots. The advantages of academy style training are in areas other then quality.

So Mav, stop giving free ground yet?

[Mavmb]

What is this a political game? Is that the best dirt you can find on me searching back jetcareers posts for the past six months? Wow, I must hit Pan Am pretty close to the mark because you guys attack me all over the website now. Real professionalism from you guys as always.

[Mavmb]

Well I must admit, I feel a little better about a career as a pilot now. I'm still worried but for now things are looking a little better. I flew with a Southwest pilot in his 182 and I was asking him about the career.

He said that it is difficult, but that I still have a good flying career ahead of me because although the airlines have many problems, the corporate jet and regional airlines will keep doing better. He said I could probably get a job flying one of the CRJs for 100 thousand a year. If so, that would make me happy. I don't even need a lot of money, just a job that I can rely on to be there the next day, and enough to live comfortably and make the work worthwile.

[dakovich]

this market sucks, not much anyone can do about it

[EDUC8-or]

Don't hang up your David Clarks just yet! I know 100% where you are coming from. I was thinking about leaving teaching (kids) and only teaching (flying) this year. I simlpy couldn't afford it. As Doug said, this industry is feast or famine. Well, my flight school is feasting right now and I'm in on it. But even flying 3-4 times a day, every day, seven days a week my paycheck was about 1/2 of what I make as a school teacher sans benefits.

Don't let anyone tell you you're in the wrong industry because you are greedy. Maybe they don't know what it's like to pay rent, try to have some food in the fridge, pay car insurance, afford car payments, pay a phone bill, manage student loans, keep the electric company at bay, keep static from forming on your cell phone (You can't hear me now? NOT GOOD!), stop those credit cards from melting, and pay any other bills on 10-15 bucks an hour. And that's NOT a guaranteed 40 hour work week. I'm not in it for the money, but it sure is nice to have a roof over my head and not mess up my credit so I can actually buy a new car or house one day. (Although I would keep my '89 MX-6 with 150,000 miles on it forever if my wife would let me!)

I think if you were in it for the money, you would have high tailed it by now. Don't listen to the naysayers and critics. If you have the passion for it (and you know what IT is) there shouldn't be anything that gets in your way.

[EFC]

It's amazing to me how a typical minimum wage worker can often make more money than a CFI.

Look at who has more responsibility...Fast food worker -"would you like fries with that" or CFI - "would you like to live to fly another day".....what's wrong with that picture.

It's no secret that FBO's & flight schools exploit instructors who are hungry to move up to the next level. But those instructors who give away thier time for free don't help the situation.

I'm in the same boat as most of you....I have a decent paying job in the IT - Retail industry. Due to my family and financial situation, I have pretty much resigned myself to just being a Part-time CFI and keeping my current job. I know this sounds like a low goal, but I now consider success in the Aviation field to be making enough money to cover my monthly flying club expenses.


Fly safe,
Mark P. - EFC

[Sprint100]

I gotta throw my hands up and admit it......The best years/chances of becoming an airline pilot are before wife and kids.

[172_Captain]

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Not trying to take things away from your point, but from what I understand many many many people have had it much worse than us! Much!

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Your are correct sir. Hot tar roofers in hell do have it worse.

[bluelake]

yeah, there's plenty worse. In my earlier career (a decade earlier) as a State Campground Park Ranger, I paid my initial dues by holding a truck-driven pump and pumping you know what (and things you WOULDNT know what) from portable outhouses at campgrounds. I did it cuz I knew the jobs it lead to and as such am not traumatized by it.

This may be somewhat tangential to this thread but I thought of it since a lot of us pilot slash career folks really dread this dilemma of how to get through the "early" career steps in one piece, financially or emotionally or professionally. I am one of them, but for me atleast I have experienced this feeling of being on trial with oneself, if that makes any sense.

[Bluffster]

I'm sure many of us know how you feel in this market. I was in the software field before making the switch. I've been instructing professionally for just over two and a half years now. I was all setup with interviews in August 2001, then nothing for the next two years. Well, there's instructing.

Don't get me wrong, I love instructing and meeting people and helping them accomplish their goals, though my goals just keep getting delayed further and further. I still enjoy knowing that if I have to go to work, it means I'll be in the sky. But I also know how little money you make and the long hours you have to work, because I'm there myself and have been for over two years now. I have a house which I will probably have to sell in six months when the savings run out. I have 1800 hours, and the ratings...

So far in my personal experience, the hiring outlook is bleak, very bleak. I'm starting to get burned out on instructing... yeah yeah it's great, but come on now, after the first thousand hours of dual given it can become a chore at times. All this for long days and low pay.. and the sky.

But damnit, I'm flying which is what I've always wanted to do. I decided that I was going to stick with this thing until I'm broke, At the moment, it's a race to see which happens first: I go broke, burned out from instructing or I get the next job which will allow me to hold on a little longer with maybe just enough pay to cover the bills. I've been actively looking for some time now and am hoping that the dream comes through. That or I'll be heading back to a cubicle, which seems a fate unimaginable to me anymore.

I have a love/hate relationship with flying now. I love it because I'm a captive to the sky, yet hate it because I'm still a captive whatever the costs.

[bluelake]

yeah, one thing that I have learned a few seasons into being a CFI is two things:

1) Never say to yourself "I have to fly today". Say "I GET to fly today." (I dont care what anyone says, there are times when ya just would rather not fly and do nothing instead... but we gotta appreciate the basic love of it all.)

2) When the pay is bad, especially the 1/2 hour scenic flights or 1/2 hour Intro flights.. I always remind myself the following: "I am flying in an airplane and I am NOT paying for it."

[EatSleepFly]

Good points, bluelake.

Yesterday I was working on landings with one of my private students. Out of the blue, he just said, "Man, you have the coolest job ever. You get to fly a variety of different airplanes around almost all day every day. I would give anything to have your job."

I didn't really know what to think at first because some days, I sure don't feel like I have the coolest job. But then I got to thinking about it, and I decided that there are definitely worse jobs to have out there. Sure, the hours are long, my boss is a dick, and the pay isn't great...but I'm doing what I love, and what I've wanted to do since I was about 5. Can't beat that.

That being said, I've been flying my arse off for the past week, so I am DEFINITELY looking forward to my "do-nothing-day" on Tuesday!

[bluelake]

EatSleep,

I agree with you. my experience as a CFI so far is really well summed up in what you said.

In the past 9 months, I have given dual to about 20 people and in 7 different planes. Most already have their PPL.

Each day it's a scramble to make sure my brain is exactly positioned for the person that is paying me, and more importantly, relying on me to provide good instruction..

DeanR

[Cobra5p4]

Listen, I think everyone that isn't already in the field, is missing the big picture. Someone in the main forum has a thread indicating that he has a furlough recall date for Dec. 1st. What's shocking is that this guy has 20 years of experience, a bunch of type ratings in various military aircraft. What makes "anyone" on this board, think for a moment, that they can scoot to an interview and be subsequently hired over someone like that? Someone who's paid dues for 20 years ? You can't ignore it, doing so will have you waste your time and your money. Doug mentioned its all about timing. If look around you, it's not just the airline industry, its everywhere. CPA's are applying for entry level jobs at my wife's company. I look to interview helpdesk staff and get MBA's with current certifications that wouldn't consider such a position years ago. Listen, Doug mentions "its feast or famine" and for the foreseeable future, until the economy is back to its pre-9/11 days, I advise that everyone that isn't there in the cockpit already, keep it as recreational flying, keep at it. But don't go in to this full swing at an FBO or ATP for that matter and think you have a decent shot at landing a paying job that will keep bread on the table, unless you're a prodigy and that aren't many of them around either. There is only 1 way to the cockpit of a regional for sure, and it involves money, buying your time in a twin and flying the hell out of a ME to up your time. Face it, if any of us had that kind of money, in the mid $100's, we wouldn't be asking "should I leave my job as a )(*&" for a chance at flying the big metal. Guys, focus, look around you and make the right decision. This is not mean't to be denigrating or discouraging, I just don't want to see anyone's psyche damaged by leaping to such an allusion in this day and time. I would love to make the leap and have $80k from the sale of my home just recently, but that's not enough to get me a job in this industry anytime in the foreseeable future (3-5 years).

[TravelinMan]

Cobra,
That's a little too " the glass is half empty " for me. I think you have some perfectly good excuses for giving up if one so chooses. But if one gives up then they are a quitter and it never would have mattered anyway.
If you want to know what "anyone" is thinking when they want to get a job at a regional when there are experienced pilots with type ratings on furlough, just think about it. Why would a regional want to hire a high time pilot with tons of experience that could get called back anyday, or leave for a better job. Especially considering that there are low time entry level pilots with little or no line experience, that would be sure to stay with that company until they found a more desirable job 5 years down the road.
Not to say it doesn't happen, because it does. However, regionals hire relatively new, low time pilots every day.

[giants_fan]

yeah and a low time pilot will work long hours for low pay

[raysalmon]

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What makes "anyone" on this board, think for a moment, that they can scoot to an interview and be subsequently hired over someone like that? Someone who's paid dues for 20 years ?

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Because someone like that would be *VERY* stupid to resign his seniority number and go back to the regionals. Most places require that you resign your seniority number to get hired. I hired a Chief Instructor for our 141 program last year. He's a furloughed regional captain. He wouldn't dream of applying for a job that required he resign his number.

You cannot really look at the hypothetical situations when you talk about pilot hiring. "What makes sense" doesn't always match up to reality.

Having said all that, I am sending my resume into the regional airlines, but with a healthy dose of skepticism that I'll get many interviews / job offers. You should never give up trying, "when the going gets tough, the tough get going." That's what my mother always taught me. Just be prepared that in times like this, you're more likely to get a "no" It's just a question of sticking with it!

Ray

[cowboy]

Flying is all about making it, so many people give up its amazing. However, that is encouraging to people who refuse to give up and who get jobs because they kept plugging away.

At my flight school in the last year 2 instructors got hired by SkyWest and 2 by Horizon. The year before that a few were hired on for a company in Alaska flying B1900's. Another one is done with ground school at Ameriflight and is now waiting for a flight slot to open up. There is also two or three that have leads that should be either coporate or regional in the next year. Which is good for my prospects as I'll be finishing completing my CFI this winter.

The point is people are getting hired (atleast from here). These people instructed for 2-4 years after college and are now sitting in a good position. And this is after the 9-11 economic crash.

Just keep plugging away, it is not as bad as it looks. The amount of retirements over the next 10 years is going to be huge! Even if air travel doesn't pick up (which is highly unlikely) there will still be a demand for pilots.

People always think the whole world is crashing and will nothing will ever get better in the down times, then when things are up people think it could never come down.

[Sprint100]

OK. some are just totally fixated on the pilot or bust thing LOL!!!!!!!!!!! I sure totally was until my wife said thoe two magic words....."I'm pregnant".
That is what it took for the reality of aspiring to be a pilot to really hit me. Bills gotta get paid, etc.
If you're single, then go for it; if your well of financially, go for it; but don't think your just gonna breeze into the right/left seat of a 747 and start bankrolling over 60 a year.
Flying is too much fun to think you'll die wealthy and outta debt, that is after 9-11.