Joining in the fun....

[cignaguy]

Hi all-

I posted this on the Member Announcement section also, but figured I would place it here too.

This is my first post to forum. A friend of mine recommended it a couple of weeks ago after I told him I was seriously considering a career change. It has been comforting to read some of the other career changers' posts and to realize that it is not impossible as long as one is willing to accept all the risks with the change.

In summary, I will turn 29 in January. I currently work for a consulting company in Denver and have been here three years. I can't fathom doing this for the next 30 years of my life; I would go insane. I graduated in 2000 with a B.S. in Finance from University of Tennessee. After 1.3 years at my first real job at a health insurance company, I decided to go to Navy OCS. I went into flight school after that. However, I was very uncomfortable with the pace of the training (they were cutting weeks out of the aviation pipeline to try and get people through quicker) so I decided to attempt to transfer to another Officer community. Due to the abundance of officers after 9/11, they were not allowing people to transfer to other communities and were honorably discharging anyone who did not complete their intial training program (even the Academy grads believe it or not). While I have always wanted to fly, this killed my aviation motivation for quite awhile. So that is a little background on me (more than some people might want to know)....

So now that I have completely regained my confidence, I am about to start my PPL. Thankfully, there is a huge difference between civilian and military aviation with regards to training. Even though I was getting paid to learn in the Navy, I have no problem at all knowing that I will be shelling out a ton of money to learn in the civilian world.

My plan is to get my PPL and then attend one of the bigger flight schools. I have focused on ATP quite a bit because of the reputation and because of references from friends that are pilots. I would be committing myself full time to training, but I think I would opt for the 10 month self-paced rather than the 90 day "rush". I intend on completing the program quicker than 10 months, but I just won't want to have a 90-day deadline sitting in the back of my mind. Any thoughts or comments on this? Are people who opt for the self-paced program looked down upon? Also, any experience with the Phoenix location?

I hope to get to the airport here in Denver to talk to some folks soon regarding the PPL. However, if anyone else lives in Denver, you know the weather hasn't been very conducive to flight training lately, so I haven't even made it to the airport to talk with anyone. It isn't suppose to get over 15 degrees for the next 5 days!

Sorry for the long drawn out introduction, and thanks for all the great information and helpfulness on here!

[Ian J]

Welcome to JC! Glad to have you aboard.


(Just so you know, double posts ain't cool around these parts... one usually does just fine)

[SteveC]

Welcome aboard!






(p.s. - try not to double post please. Thank you!)



.

[LoadMasterC141]

Welcome aboard sir!
I would search around in the ATP section below for some of your answers. Also, if you are really interested in ATP, go to their website and apply for a "Career coach". This will give you access to more forums (MORE READING YAY!).

I was considering the 10 month program too, but it seemed a little frowned upon when I asked about it. I think ATP is designed for the 90 day personally, but I have heard plenty of success stories about the 10 month too. Do some searching....decide for yourself.

I am 32, have my mind made up for a greenlight for mid-year into the 90 day ACPP. The only thing left is figuring out the financing. How were you going to do that? (P.S. If you say "Take a loan out for $50k", you should just search on Steve C's name and put in a disclaimer that you have read his rant compilation post)

[cignaguy]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

Welcome aboard sir!
I would search around in the ATP section below for some of your answers. Also, if you are really interested in ATP, go to their website and apply for a "Career coach". This will give you access to more forums (MORE READING YAY!).

I was considering the 10 month program too, but it seemed a little frowned upon when I asked about it. I think ATP is designed for the 90 day personally, but I have heard plenty of success stories about the 10 month too. Do some searching....decide for yourself.

I am 32, have my mind made up for a greenlight for mid-year into the 90 day ACPP. The only thing left is figuring out the financing. How were you going to do that? (P.S. If you say "Take a loan out for $50k", you should just search on Steve C's name and put in a disclaimer that you have read his rant compilation post)

Thanks for the welcome(s)! I did see the Career Coach option on ATP's site, just haven't done that yet. As far as 90-day versus 10-month, I have also seen the 90-day frowned upon, just can't remember where I saw that and for what reason. Regardless, in the end, the same goal is met, just a difference in time.

As far as financing goes, fortunately I am pretty sure I have that covered. I have worked for an actuarial consulting firm for a few years and make some decent money. Single, never married, no kids. I have maintained the same lifestyle over the years, so all of my raises and bonuses I have either been able to throw into savings or 401K/IRA's. My girlfriend also is very supportive and wants me to do what makes me happy. She is also an actuary and makes great money. Regardless, I am a true believer that if someone wants to make a career change, money should not be a barrier. $50-$60K is a small investment to pay for the happiness of the next 30ish years. I have no problem with being broke for awhile if it means happiness. Those who have been in the corporate world probably have similar feelings.

Again, appreciate all of the welcomes and look forward to more great information. We got a high of 9 degrees here in Denver today, so I am gonna try and stay warm!

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by cignaguy

Regardless, I am a true believer that if someone wants to make a career change, money should not be a barrier. $50-$60K is a small investment to pay for the happiness of the next 30ish years. I have no problem with being broke for awhile if it means happiness. Those who have been in the corporate world probably have similar feelings.

First of all, welcome to JC! I think it's great that you are soliciting information from the JC community. This is a most excellent first step in your pursuit of your career change. I'm glad that you have a finance background. I don't think I'll be the first one to tell you that getting into this industry with debt is not exactly a happy place to be. I quoted a part of your post because it is my opinion that while your ideaology is correct, the reality of the situation is quite a different story.

Like you, I decided that flying the desk was about as exciting as well, I'll dispense with the colorful metaphors. So at the age of 33 I decided to take the plunge. Like you, I felt like money should not be a consideration and that with the initial low pay, hard work, and passion for flying, it's more than enough to see me through. Well, the reality of the situation is, I have so much debt now that I can't get myself into a regional airline job. I threw everything and the kitchen sink to this career change and with the help (and I say this in jest) of CAPT (crap flight training program with dishonorable people at the helm) I am now poor, unable to get into the industry, and have no flight instructor certifications to build time.

I know that you can appreciate this when I tell you that with my monthly debt + expenses, I will be operating in the red every month for at least two to three years (depending on the regional airline). This isn't some paper number. This is real money I will need to have in my bank account to pay out every month! To make a long story short, my efforts and attempts to do this "career change" ended me back to the industry I left for aviation at a lower pay, enough debt to keep me out of the aviation industry, no money to live my life (living with the parents making money to pay off debt), and an overall miserable existence. So, while you're right about investing $50-60k for 30 years of happiness, you may want to consider what happens if you spent $50-60k and never get there.

While I don't think you will end up like me, I do think you need to consider doing a LOT more research about the career you're embarking and all the details and nuiances that are between point A and point B, and keep your ideaology to a minimum. Aviation is a rather unforgiving pursuit and if you're not careful, you can end up just like me. Ask questions. Lots and lots and lots of questions. You don't want to make mistakes along the way and end up like me.

Do your due dilligence, and then do it again. And then do it again. You don't want to jump into this career change without doing your due dilligence. Oh, did I mention you should do your due dilligence? Best of luck to you sir!

[cignaguy]

Originally Posted by Flying Ninja

First of all, welcome to JC! I think it's great that you are soliciting information from the JC community. This is a most excellent first step in your pursuit of your career change. I'm glad that you have a finance background. I don't think I'll be the first one to tell you that getting into this industry with debt is not exactly a happy place to be. I quoted a part of your post because it is my opinion that while your ideaology is correct, the reality of the situation is quite a different story.

Like you, I decided that flying the desk was about as exciting as well, I'll dispense with the colorful metaphors. So at the age of 33 I decided to take the plunge. Like you, I felt like money should not be a consideration and that with the initial low pay, hard work, and passion for flying, it's more than enough to see me through. Well, the reality of the situation is, I have so much debt now that I can't get myself into a regional airline job. I threw everything and the kitchen sink to this career change and with the help (and I say this in jest) of CAPT (crap flight training program with dishonorable people at the helm) I am now poor, unable to get into the industry, and have no flight instructor certifications to build time.

I know that you can appreciate this when I tell you that with my monthly debt + expenses, I will be operating in the red every month for at least two to three years (depending on the regional airline). This isn't some paper number. This is real money I will need to have in my bank account to pay out every month! To make a long story short, my efforts and attempts to do this "career change" ended me back to the industry I left for aviation at a lower pay, enough debt to keep me out of the aviation industry, no money to live my life (living with the parents making money to pay off debt), and an overall miserable existence. So, while you're right about investing $50-60k for 30 years of happiness, you may want to consider what happens if you spent $50-60k and never get there.

While I don't think you will end up like me, I do think you need to consider doing a LOT more research about the career you're embarking and all the details and nuiances that are between point A and point B, and keep your ideaology to a minimum. Aviation is a rather unforgiving pursuit and if you're not careful, you can end up just like me. Ask questions. Lots and lots and lots of questions. You don't want to make mistakes along the way and end up like me.

Do your due dilligence, and then do it again. And then do it again. You don't want to jump into this career change without doing your due dilligence. Oh, did I mention you should do your due dilligence? Best of luck to you sir!

Flying Ninja.....Thanks for your response! I looked back on a few of your old posts and it seems like you got the shaft pretty badly by the CAPT program? I honestly had not even heard of that program until your post. Also, it seems like that program was quite costly! $100Kish??!?! That is highway robbery. I have been looking into programs such as ATP and Ari Ben.

Yeah, I have thought about "what if it doesn't work out, etc?" However, I try to keep those thoughts to a minimum because I don't want to have those thoughts being dominant in my mind if I am going to try and succeed. I do agree that it is very smart to look at all possible outcomes and to have a backup plan. For me, my backup plan would be just to fall back on my corporate experience.

As far as financing, I have about $45K saved up, but I don't want to blow through all of my cash. I am looking at potential ways to finance everything right now, and if I can save my cash for living expenses, etc, then I will.

Sorry to hear about how it worked out for you, but did you at least get SOME ratings out of your training? Could you somehow go to an FBO and finish things up? I have thought about just staying at a local FBO in Denver and doing all the ratings, but then I would be missing the multi-engine time that is a necessity. Any thoughts on that?

Again, thanks for your feedback and sharing your experiences!

[notawannabee]

I have only a simple suggestion, and I have struggled with taking the leap into more ratings and possible career in aviation myself.

Last night I structured a " career plan " in two scenarios. One was being a pilot and the other is my usual desk job. I did a year by year analysis / comparison of pay between each profession. I did this in 5 year increments until I am 60 ( I am currently 34 ).

I make in the 40-50k range now and gave myself a top salary of 70k if I stay in the same line of work. If I chose the flying route ,I also took into account lost wages during training and interest on the SLM loan. I estimated a normal career progression in my industry and averaged the regional / majors pay scales for 10 airlines. I gave myself 4 years to make captain. It would be at least 3 years before I could bring home the same pay I do now.

OF course the aviation industry is constantly changing, but if it were to stay similar to what it is today, the salary on the aviation side really begins to catch up.

In my crystal ball for my situation :

years 1-10....aviation.....376,636 take home pay
years 1-10....desk..........411,569 take home pay

*in this calculation, I did not include the training loan of about 40k at 10% interest. This would amount to 471.60 / month payments for 180 months for a total of 85,000 !!!

The next 15 years look pretty good..assuming all variables hold ( I know they never do)

In this time span at 100.00 / hr take home pay is 937,360 take home on the aviation side and 797,280 for my current career.
I have hesitated taking the jump for 5-6 years now and keep looking back at the what if's....but you never know. Then again I am married and have 2 kids...my wife has a good paying job, but I still need to bring home a minimum of 1500.00 / month to keep things as simple as they are.

Enough about me, in your situation.....cash is nice to have, and you can even make it work for you. BUT, correct me if I'm wrong....the SLM loan has variable interest....and we know where interest rates are going...up.
I would consider paying for as much as half or more of training cost on your own. I have some good mutals that are doing in the 10-15% range and that's it. It's a balance..and I'm sure you are taking all this in consideration.

[cignaguy]

Originally Posted by notawannabee

I have only a simple suggestion, and I have struggled with taking the leap into more ratings and possible career in aviation myself.

Last night I structured a " career plan " in two scenarios. One was being a pilot and the other is my usual desk job. I did a year by year analysis / comparison of pay between each profession. I did this in 5 year increments until I am 60 ( I am currently 34 ).

I make in the 40-50k range now and gave myself a top salary of 70k if I stay in the same line of work. If I chose the flying route ,I also took into account lost wages during training and interest on the SLM loan. I estimated a normal career progression in my industry and averaged the regional / majors pay scales for 10 airlines. I gave myself 4 years to make captain. It would be at least 3 years before I could bring home the same pay I do now.

OF course the aviation industry is constantly changing, but if it were to stay similar to what it is today, the salary on the aviation side really begins to catch up.

In my crystal ball for my situation :

years 1-10....aviation.....376,636 take home pay
years 1-10....desk..........411,569 take home pay

*in this calculation, I did not include the training loan of about 40k at 10% interest. This would amount to 471.60 / month payments for 180 months for a total of 85,000 !!!

The next 15 years look pretty good..assuming all variables hold ( I know they never do)

In this time span at 100.00 / hr take home pay is 937,360 take home on the aviation side and 797,280 for my current career.
I have hesitated taking the jump for 5-6 years now and keep looking back at the what if's....but you never know. Then again I am married and have 2 kids...my wife has a good paying job, but I still need to bring home a minimum of 1500.00 / month to keep things as simple as they are.

Enough about me, in your situation.....cash is nice to have, and you can even make it work for you. BUT, correct me if I'm wrong....the SLM loan has variable interest....and we know where interest rates are going...up.
I would consider paying for as much as half or more of training cost on your own. I have some good mutals that are doing in the 10-15% range and that's it. It's a balance..and I'm sure you are taking all this in consideration.

Hi Notawannabe-

Thanks for your insight! Yes, I have considered all of this. I have no doubt that I would make a lot of money in my current job if I stayed. I currently make a base of $62K plus bonus (about $72-75K this year), and I will be getting a raise and promotion effective April 1st, and the raises are generally in the 10% range. On the other hand, I know I will be poor for a few years if I make the career change.

While your analysis is based on money, my personal analysis is based on hapiness. Hapiness in the long run will far outweigh any amount of money I could make in my current job.

I think I am to the point where I have decided that I am going to get my ratings from an FBO since that is the truly cheaper route, as opposed to going through one of the fancy, fast-paced, flight academies. It will save me money and allow me to work more at my own pace, personally providing me more confidence in myself and my skills. I will use some cash for this, but I also own a house (or at least pay a mortgage on it, the bank technically owns it! ha!). I am planning on renting my house out and moving into an apartment and finding a roommate. I am thinking I might also be able to get a cheaper home equity line of credit or loan (if they will still give it to me not having a job) than the highway robbery of Sallie Mae or Key Bank. My mutual funds have earned 18-20% the past year or so, but I know that definitely won't continue forever, and it certainly isn't typical!

I am also single and no kids, so it is certainly easier to do this than having kids and being married. Please keep me up to date on your journey also, as I would like to know what you ultimately decide to do.

Matt

[notawannabee]

You're right. Happiness is a big part of the equation. I try my best to leave the misery of work...at work.

FBO is a great idea !

I need to look into the home equity line of credit option also.

[3green]

Hi Cignaguy,

It good to see your asking alot of questions. My background is working full time with wife (no kids) and have my multi-comm. ratings from a local FBO in socal. Listen to what Ninja says because he's dead on right about living with a large amount of debt from training. I've built my hours on weekends with friends and renting and get a weekly fix doing it. All the while working fulltime. Sometime the grass is greener on the other side, until you actually get there. I've seen friends get furloughed from airlines, suffer from low pay, and straight quit the industry because of how unstable it is.

I would recommend go to an FBO fly when you can and don't go into debt. to work a job that pays $17,000-$25,000 starting at the regional level. I've got 0 debt. from going to an FBO to flight train. Yeah, it may be slower, but you won't have that big old lady name Sallie calling you for a $400-500 a month loan payment.

Maybe I'll take the leap someday when I'm ready to fly a jet someday(ain't no rush, but for some there is), but I like having gas in my car, food on the table(not top-ramen either) and money in the bank. And I get to fly where I want and whenever I want carefree! To each his own and best of luck which ever path you choose!

[cignaguy]

Originally Posted by 3green

Hi Cignaguy,

It good to see your asking alot of questions. My background is working full time with wife (no kids) and have my multi-comm. ratings from a local FBO in socal. Listen to what Ninja says because he's dead on right about living with a large amount of debt from training. I've built my hours on weekends with friends and renting and get a weekly fix doing it. All the while working fulltime. Sometime the grass is greener on the other side, until you actually get there. I've seen friends get furloughed from airlines, suffer from low pay, and straight quit the industry because of how unstable it is.

I would recommend go to an FBO fly when you can and don't go into debt. to work a job that pays $17,000-$25,000 starting at the regional level. I've got 0 debt. from going to an FBO to flight train. Yeah, it may be slower, but you won't have that big old lady name Sallie calling you for a $400-500 a month loan payment.

Maybe I'll take the leap someday when I'm ready to fly a jet someday(ain't no rush, but for some there is), but I like having gas in my car, food on the table(not top-ramen either) and money in the bank. And I get to fly where I want and whenever I want carefree! To each his own and best of luck which ever path you choose!

Thanks 3green! I am planning on beginning my PPL this weekend. I plan on flying full time starting in April. I have had enough of the corporate gig for awhile and refuse to be miserable doing it the rest of my life. What do you think is a comfortable pace to get PPL, Inst., Comm, Multi rating, and CFI flying full time? I have no plans to go as fast as an "academy", but I do plan on doing it full time. I figure flying full-time will be more efficient and will save money in the long run, avoiding the need to repeat a ton of the same lessons like I would if I was working full time and fitting in a lesson when I could. Also, any how much I can expect to spend getting those certificates/ratings at an FBO?

Again, still not sure what I will do for financing. I just have to figure out all of my options. I have about $50K cash, but kinda wanted to use cash as an "emergency fund" and for living expenses. Definitely big decisions to be made.

[3green]

I spent about $35,000 to get all my ratings up to the point I mentioned. And that was inexpensive california where training ain't cheap. Make sure you find a school that won't take you for a ride, because most will gladly give you the world to get your molla. Especially with the large turnover at flight schools now and days with the regionals hiring like mad its going to be tougher to keep the same instructor through your ratings. Have you taken a demo flight yet? Take them with the schools your interested in and you'll get a better vibe of the schools. Is it possible to take a leave of absence or work less hours at your job so you wouldn't have to leave to fly? That way you wouldn't have to blow your savings and have a buffer for rainy days.