student loan worries

notawannabee · February 25th, 2006, 14:06

Does anyone here have any advice , or better yet, an account of their personal experience on paying student loans while working for regional airline pay?
I find it tempting, although unsatisfying, to sit at a desk job making 50k " off the bat " and gradually save money for retirement at a modest investment interest rate ( 2,000 / month for 10-15 years = million dollars...which would have 1/2 the buying power as today.) It would probably take an uninterrupted 4 years of flying to reach this point. Then there is the debt added in as well. Long term, the pilot option is better, if there are no interruptions in my career. Yea, I know..there will be interruptions.
I need to research how many pilots actually make it to retirement in aviation. If any of you know, I would love to hear to figure.

I know that being in aviation you must be able to adapt. However, there are some forces that are beyond our control.
Money IS important. however, if it was most important , I would not be stuggling with my decision. My goal is probably the same as most people ; to work a job and exercise a skill that I am passionate about while making a comfortable income for my family.

I keep hearing about all the pilots that will be retiring and there will be jobs, but at what price? To me, it would take a helluva lot of demand to bring pilots wages BACK to a point that offsets the demands and skills needed to be in this profession. I mean, why would they raise the pay if all these pilots are waiting in line for a job no matter the salary.

Then I hear of the orders for all these new aircraft. Well, if you buy a 1000 aircraft and scrap 800 ( or sell them to other countries / industries that would have little effect on our job prospects), that is not much of an increase. I would love to hear any input or experiences any of you have in any of these subjects. Thanks in advance for all responses.

TheFlyingTurkey · February 25th, 2006, 17:31

I work for Piedmont Airlines, first year FO pay is $24 flight hour, 72 hour minimum.
I have a student loan.
I married a beautiful woman who makes almost 4 times what I make.
Thats how I survive.
2nd year FO pay is $28
3rd year FO pay is $29
4th year FO pay is $30
Max FO pay is $33

Hopefully I will upgrade to captain by the end of year 3.

notawannabee · February 25th, 2006, 18:27

That's a good starting salary for regionals. My wife has a good job as well which will help. As you already know, it's great to have a supportive spouse. Things will be tough for the first few years, but then again, rarely does anything good come easy.
What are your thoughts working corporate ? I've noticed alot of negativity towards the airlines, but not so much the corporate. If it means less headaches with management and not having to fight for a decent income, I don't mind cleaning the plane, the toilets, handing out tissues, whatever.

TheFlyingTurkey · February 25th, 2006, 19:15

Getting a corporate gig would be great. But from the research I have done, those jobs are tough to get. There are a lot of furloughed, high time pilots out in the "pool" that you'll have to compete with. But if you know someone in the biz, you'll have a leg up.

EDUC8-or · February 25th, 2006, 20:11

I also have a student loan for flying. I'm a career changer and I saved up lots while I got my tickets. My wife and I plopped down a nice down payment on a house in Charlotte and she makes more than I do and she pays the mortgage and I pay the rest of the bills. It's pretty tight just paying to keep the lights on, and I didn't take out that much money.

If you can keep your current job or get one while you get your ratings I would say go for it. I busted my behind and taught 4th grade full time while getting my ratings and instructing for about 4 years to get here. Yes, it took longer than a direct track but I did it all part 61 at an FBO and it was much cheaper. Between teaching kids, instructing, and (later) doing some charter work I was able to put about 30 grand in the bank. I don't touch the savings just in case and I suffer on my salary. It was really tough working all of the jobs, but I have a much better finacial outlook compared to my buddies from Riddle or other guys from my initial class from direct track programs who are 50-100 grand in the hole.

notawannabee · February 25th, 2006, 20:48

It seems as though I hear promising news about the industry, there is more news to counter it. For example, 1/2 Continental's pilot's will retire in the next ten years, but there are all the furloughed pilots waiting.

Question: how long can the pilots be on furlough before they are considered by companies to be obsolete, or does that happen? Wouldn't they have to keep their skills up?

Working while getting the rating is definately the safest way to go. It took alot of commiittment to teach school and stretch training out for 4 years. This industry is so critical for timing. I hope I get in at the right time. Of course, no one knows for sure when that is.

Of course my flight school says the time is now, but they stand to make 45k for all my training.

fender_jag · February 25th, 2006, 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

I also have a student loan for flying. I'm a career changer and I saved up lots while I got my tickets. My wife and I plopped down a nice down payment on a house in Charlotte and she makes more than I do and she pays the mortgage and I pay the rest of the bills. It's pretty tight just paying to keep the lights on, and I didn't take out that much money.

If you can keep your current job or get one while you get your ratings I would say go for it. I busted my behind and taught 4th grade full time while getting my ratings and instructing for about 4 years to get here. Yes, it took longer than a direct track but I did it all part 61 at an FBO and it was much cheaper. Between teaching kids, instructing, and (later) doing some charter work I was able to put about 30 grand in the bank. I don't touch the savings just in case and I suffer on my salary. It was really tough working all of the jobs, but I have a much better finacial outlook compared to my buddies from Riddle or other guys from my initial class from direct track programs who are 50-100 grand in the hole.

I did it in similar fashion to EDUC8-or. Had some savings, took out a loan (using only 1/3 of it), parents helped, and got a full-time non-aviation job. I owe approx. $3,700 on my loan and am in a hurry to get it paid off ASAP.

I cringe when I hear of the debt that some pilots have accrued. There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a little longer and working while you're acquiring ratings. And if you're smart and shop around, you can really minimize your flight training costs.

If we were getting into a career that had a little more stability and a lot better initial pay, then the steep financial leap could be justified. But earning as little as we do really puts a crimp in the bank account if there is a mountain of debt to be scaled.

BobDDuck · February 26th, 2006, 12:07

Jeremy and Turkey (sorry, can't remember your name) have the right idea. Find a suger momma. No, really, it is managable. Just be as debt free as you possibly can be coming in. If it means it takes you an extra year or two to get to the point of getting into the regionals, so be it. Save up and get through the first year or two and then, as long as you are carful, you should be ok. Of course, that is assuming that you don't get furloughed or your company shuts down. Ah yes what a wonderful industry.

Texguy · February 26th, 2006, 19:04

Bob I've been watching the airplane in your avatar all weekend and it doesn't land anywhere. How is that possible?

notawannabee · February 27th, 2006, 19:46

Great advice from all. I was getting " caught up " in the NOW..NOW..NOW you have to get in as soon as possible no matter the debt mentality.

Who knows, if the industry get's worse and it's no longer an option for me, I can put my training to good use by puttin around the sky on the weekend and not be out the extra money for ratings I don't need.

ERJ-135 · February 27th, 2006, 20:48

With only a $50K/yr income, I do not think you will be able to put away $2K a month. If you consider taxes, car payment, rent, utilities, cable, food, clothing, gas, and that student loan, and the other goodies we all depend on, you will stretch it to save $500/month.

notawannabee · February 27th, 2006, 20:57

My wife contributes to the household income as well. With a student loan, I know it would be impossible. It's one or the other, not both.

Windchill · February 28th, 2006, 09:18

Quote:

Of course my flight school says the time is now, but they stand to make 45k for all my training.

They're right :frown: somewhat ... six months from now it'll be $50,000 and then six months from then $55,000.

If you go the academy route, time may equal money. I remember looking into ATP when the 90 ACPP was low-mid $30sk. Now it's mid-$40sk. If I had decided to go that route, it basically would have cost me $10k for waiting.

But since I'm just progressing as time and money permits, it doesn't matter so much.

Longhaul · February 28th, 2006, 10:03

I am (was) a career changer. Be very cautious of student loans with your wife footing the majority of the bills. Many women are raised with the idea that the man should be the provider, although may never say it to you. Whereas she loves you and wants to see you succeed in achieving your dreams and will probably initially support you, in the middle of the financial struggle be aware that she may decide that to have a change of heart.

In my case I tried to stack the loot before flight school to insure that my wife and I could get through the lean times. But with the long hours (CFIing) and the additional financial burden on her, at least in my case, my wife felt neglected and used. Which in turn broke the marriage. Just like many others, I could not make it (financially) without her. In the end I’m left with thousands of dollars in student loans to pay (alone), no wife, and a bunch of tickets, which will never be able to be utilized to their full potential.

Will this happen to you. I truly hope not. Just weigh the risk before you mortgage your furture.

n57flyguy · February 28th, 2006, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFlyingTurkey

Getting a corporate gig would be great. But from the research I have done, those jobs are tough to get. There are a lot of furloughed, high time pilots out in the "pool" that you'll have to compete with. But if you know someone in the biz, you'll have a leg up.

Hit the nail on the head!

BobDDuck · February 28th, 2006, 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texguy

Bob I've been watching the airplane in your avatar all weekend and it doesn't land anywhere. How is that possible?

It's a magic airplane, powered by hamsters who require no rest.

Texguy · February 28th, 2006, 13:40

Texguy · February 28th, 2006, 13:43

Longhaul I'm sorry to hear all of that. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Flying Ninja · February 28th, 2006, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longhaul

See his comments above...

Yes, definitely be very careful with financials if you are planning on entering flight training and this career. I recently graduated out of CAPT and I'm about $100K in the hole. I'm at a point where the first year FO pay will not cover my monthly bare minimum expenses with no disposable income. Hence, my flight training has left me at a dead end. I was a career changer, and now I'm going back to what I was doing before so that I can pay off this loan. My certifications all amount to a glorified Private certificate. Imagine that...$100K to exercise your PVT privileges. And to add insult to injury, I won't be flying this year or maybe next year because after training, I'm broke.

If you're going into this field, absolutely do your homework. Ask the questions you know you want to ask but are afraid to. The questions you don't ask could land you in my position...high debt and no flying job.

Texguy · February 28th, 2006, 15:20

That really sucks big time and welcome!

I would think there would be some kind of flying job you can get?

notawannabee · February 28th, 2006, 16:50

Longhaul, FlyingNinja,.. everybody.... I cannot thank you enough for sharing your stories. I hope that this thread will serve others as well as it has me. I have a new level of awareness

Kristie · February 28th, 2006, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Ninja

Yes, definitely be very careful with financials if you are planning on entering flight training and this career. I recently graduated out of CAPT and I'm about $100K in the hole. I'm at a point where the first year FO pay will not cover my monthly bare minimum expenses with no disposable income. Hence, my flight training has left me at a dead end. I was a career changer, and now I'm going back to what I was doing before so that I can pay off this loan. My certifications all amount to a glorified Private certificate. Imagine that...$100K to exercise your PVT privileges. And to add insult to injury, I won't be flying this year or maybe next year because after training, I'm broke.

If you're going into this field, absolutely do your homework. Ask the questions you know you want to ask but are afraid to. The questions you don't ask could land you in my position...high debt and no flying job.

wait a minute.. so you don't have everything you need to get at least a regional job? cargo? corporate? CFI gig?

JEP · February 28th, 2006, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristie

wait a minute.. so you don't have everything you need to get at least a regional job? cargo? corporate? CFI gig?

You get a dc9 type. There is no CFII certificates in this program. If I recall correctly, yo go in with your 4yr degree and come out with the type and you are then employeable "according to the marketing dept."

Flying Ninja · March 1st, 2006, 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristie

wait a minute.. so you don't have everything you need to get at least a regional job? cargo? corporate? CFI gig?

I walked out of there with my Instrument (I already got my PVT before entering the program but they made me repeat PVT to their standards which was to say I snoozed), Private Multi, Commercial Multi, and a DC-9 type rating. I was one of the few lucky ones that was able to convert my extra time (finished sections under allocated hours) into a Commercial Single. So yes, I do have enough to get into the three airlines that CAPT has a relationship with, namely Pinnacle, ASA, and Focus. They also got American Eagle on board but AE wants 400TT/100ME and no ab initio graduating will have that (they'll get 225TT/65-80ME).

My situation is different. I was too stupid to pour all my money into this career change. I never thought it'd leave me broke to the point that I can't afford to get into the industry. Back to flying my comfortable November One Delta Echo Sierra Kilo for me. Unless you know some company that will hire me with my 459.8/101.2 for a cargo or corporate gig...somehow I doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEP

You get a dc9 type.

That is correct. You get a DC-9 type...sim used was a MD90-EFD. You do need a 4-year degree and a bucket of Benjamins.

Texguy · March 1st, 2006, 03:10

Maybe get a "regular" job and banner tow, do Civil Air Patrol, fly skydivers etc. on the weekends to build hours and network? Give aerial tours? I don't know much; hopefully someone can offer some other tips. I think it would be a shame to be commercial rated and not use it...it seems like there has to be something out there, maybe just part-time for now.

Edit: I now see you have 459/101...it doesn't seem like you're too far off from a full-time flying gig that can pay better than first year regional pay.

February 25th, 2006, 14:06	#1
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 216	student loan worries Does anyone here have any advice , or better yet, an account of their personal experience on paying student loans while working for regional airline pay? I find it tempting, although unsatisfying, to sit at a desk job making 50k " off the bat " and gradually save money for retirement at a modest investment interest rate ( 2,000 / month for 10-15 years = million dollars...which would have 1/2 the buying power as today.) It would probably take an uninterrupted 4 years of flying to reach this point. Then there is the debt added in as well. Long term, the pilot option is better, if there are no interruptions in my career. Yea, I know..there will be interruptions. I need to research how many pilots actually make it to retirement in aviation. If any of you know, I would love to hear to figure. I know that being in aviation you must be able to adapt. However, there are some forces that are beyond our control. Money IS important. however, if it was most important , I would not be stuggling with my decision. My goal is probably the same as most people ; to work a job and exercise a skill that I am passionate about while making a comfortable income for my family. I keep hearing about all the pilots that will be retiring and there will be jobs, but at what price? To me, it would take a helluva lot of demand to bring pilots wages BACK to a point that offsets the demands and skills needed to be in this profession. I mean, why would they raise the pay if all these pilots are waiting in line for a job no matter the salary. Then I hear of the orders for all these new aircraft. Well, if you buy a 1000 aircraft and scrap 800 ( or sell them to other countries / industries that would have little effect on our job prospects), that is not much of an increase. I would love to hear any input or experiences any of you have in any of these subjects. Thanks in advance for all responses.

February 26th, 2006, 12:07	#8
BobDDuck Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Left Seat Posts: 5,326	Jeremy and Turkey (sorry, can't remember your name) have the right idea. Find a suger momma. No, really, it is managable. Just be as debt free as you possibly can be coming in. If it means it takes you an extra year or two to get to the point of getting into the regionals, so be it. Save up and get through the first year or two and then, as long as you are carful, you should be ok. Of course, that is assuming that you don't get furloughed or your company shuts down. Ah yes what a wonderful industry. __________________ TBJC08 The Gear Monkey The Gear Monkey Store

February 26th, 2006, 19:04	#9
Texguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KAUS Posts: 850	Bob I've been watching the airplane in your avatar all weekend and it doesn't land anywhere. How is that possible? __________________ Leonard Nimoy singing The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins

February 28th, 2006, 10:03	#14
Longhaul Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 30	RE: Student Loan Worries I am (was) a career changer. Be very cautious of student loans with your wife footing the majority of the bills. Many women are raised with the idea that the man should be the provider, although may never say it to you. Whereas she loves you and wants to see you succeed in achieving your dreams and will probably initially support you, in the middle of the financial struggle be aware that she may decide that to have a change of heart. In my case I tried to stack the loot before flight school to insure that my wife and I could get through the lean times. But with the long hours (CFIing) and the additional financial burden on her, at least in my case, my wife felt neglected and used. Which in turn broke the marriage. Just like many others, I could not make it (financially) without her. In the end I’m left with thousands of dollars in student loans to pay (alone), no wife, and a bunch of tickets, which will never be able to be utilized to their full potential. Will this happen to you. I truly hope not. Just weigh the risk before you mortgage your furture.

February 28th, 2006, 13:40	#17
Texguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KAUS Posts: 850	Wow! __________________ Leonard Nimoy singing The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins

February 25th, 2006, 18:27	#3
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 216	That's a good starting salary for regionals. My wife has a good job as well which will help. As you already know, it's great to have a supportive spouse. Things will be tough for the first few years, but then again, rarely does anything good come easy. What are your thoughts working corporate ? I've noticed alot of negativity towards the airlines, but not so much the corporate. If it means less headaches with management and not having to fight for a decent income, I don't mind cleaning the plane, the toilets, handing out tissues, whatever.

February 25th, 2006, 20:11	#5
EDUC8-or Old Skool Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: NC Posts: 2,145	I also have a student loan for flying. I'm a career changer and I saved up lots while I got my tickets. My wife and I plopped down a nice down payment on a house in Charlotte and she makes more than I do and she pays the mortgage and I pay the rest of the bills. It's pretty tight just paying to keep the lights on, and I didn't take out that much money. If you can keep your current job or get one while you get your ratings I would say go for it. I busted my behind and taught 4th grade full time while getting my ratings and instructing for about 4 years to get here. Yes, it took longer than a direct track but I did it all part 61 at an FBO and it was much cheaper. Between teaching kids, instructing, and (later) doing some charter work I was able to put about 30 grand in the bank. I don't touch the savings just in case and I suffer on my salary. It was really tough working all of the jobs, but I have a much better finacial outlook compared to my buddies from Riddle or other guys from my initial class from direct track programs who are 50-100 grand in the hole.

February 25th, 2006, 20:48	#6
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 216	It seems as though I hear promising news about the industry, there is more news to counter it. For example, 1/2 Continental's pilot's will retire in the next ten years, but there are all the furloughed pilots waiting. Question: how long can the pilots be on furlough before they are considered by companies to be obsolete, or does that happen? Wouldn't they have to keep their skills up? Working while getting the rating is definately the safest way to go. It took alot of commiittment to teach school and stretch training out for 4 years. This industry is so critical for timing. I hope I get in at the right time. Of course, no one knows for sure when that is. Of course my flight school says the time is now, but they stand to make 45k for all my training.

February 27th, 2006, 19:46	#10
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 216	Great advice from all. I was getting " caught up " in the NOW..NOW..NOW you have to get in as soon as possible no matter the debt mentality. Who knows, if the industry get's worse and it's no longer an option for me, I can put my training to good use by puttin around the sky on the weekend and not be out the extra money for ratings I don't need.

February 27th, 2006, 20:48	#11
ERJ-135 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: USA Posts: 277	With only a $50K/yr income, I do not think you will be able to put away $2K a month. If you consider taxes, car payment, rent, utilities, cable, food, clothing, gas, and that student loan, and the other goodies we all depend on, you will stretch it to save $500/month.

February 27th, 2006, 20:57	#12
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 216	My wife contributes to the household income as well. With a student loan, I know it would be impossible. It's one or the other, not both.

February 28th, 2006, 13:43	#18
Texguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KAUS Posts: 850	Longhaul I'm sorry to hear all of that. Thank you for sharing it with us. __________________ Leonard Nimoy singing The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins

February 28th, 2006, 15:20	#20
Texguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KAUS Posts: 850	That really sucks big time and welcome! I would think there would be some kind of flying job you can get? __________________ Leonard Nimoy singing The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins

February 28th, 2006, 16:50	#21
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 216	Longhaul, FlyingNinja,.. everybody.... I cannot thank you enough for sharing your stories. I hope that this thread will serve others as well as it has me. I have a new level of awareness

March 1st, 2006, 03:10	#25
Texguy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: KAUS Posts: 850	Maybe get a "regular" job and banner tow, do Civil Air Patrol, fly skydivers etc. on the weekends to build hours and network? Give aerial tours? I don't know much; hopefully someone can offer some other tips. I think it would be a shame to be commercial rated and not use it...it seems like there has to be something out there, maybe just part-time for now. Edit: I now see you have 459/101...it doesn't seem like you're too far off from a full-time flying gig that can pay better than first year regional pay. __________________ Leonard Nimoy singing The Ballad of Bilbo Baggins

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