student loan worries

[Flying Ninja]

That's the goal right now...get a regular job. I'll consider myself lucky if I can make enough money, pay back my loan, and have enough disposable income to fly from time to time. It's not a question of if I'll ever fly, just when. But as far as the regional career is concerned, I'm 34...it's time to buckle down and not mess around with my future and retirement. I gave it a shot. It didn't work out. It happens.

RE: 459/101
That's all the time I have on the books, and that's all the time I'll have on the books for a LONG time. Not too far off might as well be 1000 hours at this point. I'm broke. End of the line for me until I make enough to fly again. My INST currency expires in 4 months. I won't be flying in the next 4 months.

[notawannabee]

NINJA,

Do you have CFI rating ?
Also, I looked at the CAPT program info before and seem to remember they give a partial refund if not hired ( under conditions ). Did they do this for you ?

Everyone's situation is different. If I were in the situation, I would have to consider working a second job ( at night ? ) to get the few hours I'm lacking to get in a better position to be hired. To be so close and have sacrificed so much, well.....to overcome this would be perhaps even more rewarding than getting the job itself.

However, no one knows your situation better than yourself, and the decision is yours.

[Texguy]

Originally Posted by notawannabee

Do you have CFI rating ?

[pgreen]

Just to put in my 2 cents...
i have spent the last 2 years, since my commercial checkride, working in my original carrier to save up enough ca$h to do my CFI tickets and get instructing to build hours with some money in the bank... As far a loans, Key Bank just informed me my loan rate is now up to over 7%, so more cash each month, about 90$ in increased payments, as interest rates continue to rise so will the cost of paying off debt!

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by notawannabee

Do you have CFI rating ?

I don't have a CFI rating. And no, CAPT does not offer you a CFI. I don't recall reading any information on a partial refund if you don't get hired. If you can find documentation to that effect, I'd love to see it.

As it stands, unless someon hires me out of my parent's basement with the hours that I have, there's no way I can afford to be living elsewhere trying to get hours. I think the saying is "so close yet so far" in my case.

Regarding the loan, I also have a loan based on LIBOR and the percentage is 7.5% which basically means I got about $1000 a month in payments. Good times...

[Kristie]

What would it take to get your CFI rating?

I hate seeing someone so close be so far...there should be something out there that can help you get those extra flying hours! it might take 2 jobs.. it might take living at home longer...eating ramen noodles longer...

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by Kristie

What would it take to get your CFI rating?

I hate seeing someone so close be so far...there should be something out there that can help you get those extra flying hours! it might take 2 jobs.. it might take living at home longer...eating ramen noodles longer...

My plan right now is to get back into my previous career and start making money again. My primary concern is being able to pay my monthly loan payments and I'd like to pay more each month to keep the loan down. On top of that, I have my college loan I have to pay, and then the cell phone, car, etc. So at the end of the day, I'll have very little money as I do want to put money toward my retirement since I haven't contributed in 2 years.

I am going to start reading on the whole CFI thing on my spare time, but it will have to be an absolutely cost free effort. At some point later in life, when I have disposable income, which, who knows when that will be, I will hook up with my CFI here in NY and go for it. It's a long road. But that is my plan. As for going into the regionals, I'm chalking it up as a failure. Maybe when these VLJ air taxis start getting popular I may have a shot at them. But that's all forward looking.

[Texguy]

Wouldn't freight pay a little better than 1st year regional pay? What kind of hours are needed these days to be a freight dawg?

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by Texguy

Wouldn't freight pay a little better than 1st year regional pay? What kind of hours are needed these days to be a freight dawg?

I grabbed this from Flight Express' website:

Pilots are required to have the Part 135 IFR PIC minimums per 135.243(c):

• Commercial Single-Engine certificate with an instrument rating
• 1200 Hours Total
• 500 Hours Cross Country - point to point
• 100 Hours Night
• 75 Hours Instrument total - up to 25 in a simulator allowed
• 50 Hours Instrument in FLIGHT - simulated (hood) or actual

Ram Air Freight minimums:

Pilots must meet the FAR Part 135.243 flight time requirements for single-pilot IFR, which are:

• 1,200 Total Time
• 500 Cross Country (point to point, not necessarily over 50nm)
• 100 Night
• 75 IMC or simulated IMC, with 50 in actual flight (i.e., can only count 25 hours of simulator time)

If this is any indication, I'm out of the game for a long time.

[EatSleepFly]

Originally Posted by Texguy

Wouldn't freight pay a little better than 1st year regional pay?

Depends on the job. No matter what, it would probably require 1200TT at a minimum unless you could get on someplace as an F/O in larger equipment (that requires an F/O).

Most better paying freight jobs (FedEx feeders, jets) will require more than 1200. They are around though- I got lucky and got a freight job with 1,201 hours in my logbook that paid double a first year regional F/O salary. That is by far the exception, though- and the amount of work was almost not worth the pay.

To the original poster- try IFL Group out of Pontiac, MI. They fly Convairs, Falcons, and 727's. I've heard they hire pretty low time Convair F/O's. Maybe not quite as low as you have, but the worst they can say is no. Don't have their contact info here in front of me, so you'll have to Google them. Not sure if they're hiring anymore either, haven't been around that area in awhile. I would guess not, but their peak season will start around the end of April and they'll probably be looking soon.

[notawannabee]

Originally Posted by Flying Ninja

I don't have a CFI rating. And no, CAPT does not offer you a CFI. I don't recall reading any information on a partial refund if you don't get hired. If you can find documentation to that effect, I'd love to see it.

As it stands, unless someon hires me out of my parent's basement with the hours that I have, there's no way I can afford to be living elsewhere trying to get hours. I think the saying is "so close yet so far" in my case.

Regarding the loan, I also have a loan based on LIBOR and the percentage is 7.5% which basically means I got about $1000 a month in payments. Good times...

I reviewed the CAPT program on the ER website...looks like they just discontinued the program. The article says about 75 graduates have passed through the program and several are in training for flying jobs. It's an interesting article. Especially when they say they are going to direct their energies into other programs / satellite offices. http://www.erau.edu/capt/phaseout.html

1000.00 / month confirms my calculation of 50k loan at prime +1% and all the fees. I calculated $550.00 / month for 15 years through Sallie May.

If at some point you decide to get the extra hours, I would check out http://www.flyaviator.com/?source=jetcareers
They have some of the best prices I've seen, and it's ME on top of that.

Maybe it was a similar program at another school or they were offering the refund at one time and discontinued it. I know the program had an acronym like CAPT, ACE, or CRM and there was a refund option. I was hoping the school was ERU.

[Flying Ninja]

They did discontinue the program as the press release indicates. It's 57 to date in the article by the way.

Thanks for the flyaviator.com website, but I'm done paying a program for my training. I already made that mistake once and I'll be paying for it for the next 15 years.

[MDPilot]

Originally Posted by Flying Ninja

Yes, definitely be very careful with financials if you are planning on entering flight training and this career. I recently graduated out of CAPT and I'm about $100K in the hole. I'm at a point where the first year FO pay will not cover my monthly bare minimum expenses with no disposable income. Hence, my flight training has left me at a dead end. I was a career changer, and now I'm going back to what I was doing before so that I can pay off this loan. My certifications all amount to a glorified Private certificate. Imagine that...$100K to exercise your PVT privileges. And to add insult to injury, I won't be flying this year or maybe next year because after training, I'm broke.

If you're going into this field, absolutely do your homework. Ask the questions you know you want to ask but are afraid to. The questions you don't ask could land you in my position...high debt and no flying job.

Not trying to make fun of you personally, but EVERYBODY PAY ATTENTION TO THIS !!!! You could be the next example!!

[B767Driver]

I'm pretty hard core with the "no debt" philosophy...but here it is --- Never take out a loan for anything! Save up and pay for it when you have the money. That includes college, cars, clothes, etc. The house may be the only exception...but then...ten to fifteen year mortgage max...and plunk down a large down payment.

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

I'm pretty hard core with the "no debt" philosophy...but here it is --- Never take out a loan for anything! Save up and pay for it when you have the money. That includes college, cars, clothes, etc. The house may be the only exception...but then...ten to fifteen year mortgage max...and plunk down a large down payment.

If only we were all as affluent as you are from birth. Sorry pal, I wasn't born with a million dollars in the bank (and I'm not assuming you did either). Point is, not everyone is as blessed as you are with money. Don't insult the rest of us with your feather ruffling please.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Flying Ninja

If only we were all as affluent as you are from birth. Sorry pal, I wasn't born with a million dollars in the bank (and I'm not assuming you did either). Point is, not everyone is as blessed as you are with money. Don't insult the rest of us with your feather ruffling please.

Was never given a dollar. Paid for college by working full time...paid for flight training by scholarships. Everything in the bank is from driving old cars and in living in houses not quite as nice as my peers and paying myself instead of a banker.

Did I work 80 hours per week thru college? Yes. Did I work twelve hours per day and do school at night? Yes. Did I continue doing this after college? Yes. Did I write a check out of my personal bank account prior to the start of every semester of college? Yes. Did my parents give me any money? No. Did a banker give me a loan? Never asked.

If you don't think it can be done...go and look. Thousands of testimonials and people living the debt free way of life.

The question for you is...are you willing to live in a $6000 trailer in order to pay your way through flight training?

Don't insult me if you're too lazy to make it happen. It may take you longer...it may take you working 80 hours per week for six years. But debt is not an option...it will ruin your life. Have a plan to pay for this education prior to receiving it...not after.

You could earn $38,000 per year delivering pizzas and working at Target. If you did this for two or three years...you would earn almost $120K. That would pay for most schools and flight training programs out there...and everybody has the ability to do it.

[SteveC]

I'm with B767Driver on this one. If I can afford to make the payments on a loan, I can afford to save the money beforehand and pay cash. It will actually be easier and cheaper, since a loan will cost me huge amounts of interest above and beyond the cost of what I am buying. The only downside, if you want to consider it to be a downside, is delayed gratification. Americans have much to learn from other cultures in this area.

Don't think that I'm coming from a holier-than-thou position, either. I made the mistake of going out on a financial limb when I was in my early twenties, and had a nice new Trans Am repo'd when I was laid off from a sweet paying job with General Motors, and had to work at half the wages that I had been receiving. Been there, done that, ain't going back.

Debt is a monster that just continues to grow. The best way to stop it is to never let it in the front door in the first place. After that it takes even more dedication and hard work to stem the tide, and it is all too easy to get overwhelmed.

Flying Ninja, please don't think that I am trying to make an example of your situation, or preach to you about what you should or shouldn't have done. I'm just trying to build on your example and give advice to others out there to help them avoid similar things happening to them. You can search back through my old posts and find where I have said the same thing many times over, and it is probably the same for B767.

Sorry about what happened to you. Thank you for sharing, hopefully it will help someone else.

[Flying Ninja]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

You could earn $38,000 per year delivering pizzas and working at Target. If you did this for two or three years...you would earn almost $120K.

Oh I understand how you did it now. You didn't file any taxes! Man...you're right. 100% correct. Sheesh...I'll start that path right now. Thanks for the advice!

Originally Posted by SteveC

Thank you for sharing, hopefully it will help someone else.

I didn't take an offense to what you said. I'm glad that I can be used as an example for your students. That's the whole point of me sharing my story.

[fender_jag]

Ninja,

Good luck getting back on your feet.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Flying Ninja

They did discontinue the program as the press release indicates. It's 57 to date in the article by the way.

Thanks for the flyaviator.com website, but I'm done paying a program for my training. I already made that mistake once and I'll be paying for it for the next 15 years.

FlyingNinja,

Don't take 15 years to pay that loan off!! Get motivated...kick some serious, serious butt and get rid of it in 3 or 4 years. You can do it and once you get rid of it you will become seriously wealthy, because you will have learned how people get wealthy. Work 2 or 3 jobs...get rid of the cell phone and get focused. Also, consider not funding the retirement until the debt is gone. It's going to do you no good to fund a retirement plan while you have debt interest compounding at 7% annually. You will have some money saved but there will be no change in your net worth.


Get mad at me...but don't feel sorry for yourself. Take the bull by the horns and get focused and start winning financially. It won't be easy but the situation you are in isn't good. Without a doubt, within 5 years, you could wipe out that debt and have $15K cash in the bank. Within 7 years, the bank is going to be paying you a couple of hundred dollars per month...instead of you them $1k per month.

Private me if you'd like to discuss further...but do it! Dude, true stability and wealth is just a lot of hard work away.

[wheelsup]

Ninja,

Check out www.aircar.com. They hire people with your time, pay for F/O's in around $20k but upgrade to CA comes quick, 12-18 months for someone with your time, and they start around $40k. It's a lot of sitting around so if you get a job at your layover city you'd be able to make significantly more $$.

I can't believe CAPT duped you like that. $100k. WOW! My bud did ATP and had a job at ExpressJet 13 months from starting at ATP and only spent $33k.

~wheelsup

[Kristie]

I have to agree with both SteveC and B767Driver... you can get yourself out of a financial pickle faster if you just plunk down and DO IT! I've been there myself too with financial crash courses, worked more than 1 job to pay off my debt and learned my lesson the hard way just like you are (different cirumstances, sure)...

in the end, the satisfaction of success in that nobody owns your butt (financially) outweighs the work that had to be done in order to complete the task!!

I'd also suggest holding off on the retirement because your not going to be able to put that much in and it won't accrue as fast AND you can use the extra money to keep paying those debts! besides, nobody is guaranteed to make it to retirement age.. so use the money now while you can and once everything is free an clear - open a plan and max it out!

I've seen people do what B767Driver is talking about...it takes motivation and determination, but it CAN be done! you can still achieve those dreams.. but your gonna have to work a little harder for it unfortunately.

I know more than one person that really appreciates you sharing your story...most people do tend to learn from other peoples mistakes!

[NTXPilot]

B767Driver is right on...

[Customx]

I am really glad I read this post. I am currently living in South Korea, and am starting to do my research on flight schools for when I move back home. However, that may be 3-4 years, and I am not even in the military. I could start my PPL training right now if I were back in the states. I have been trying to find a flight school here in Korea, but it looks like they don't exist. There is 1 more place I am waiting to hear back from, but they might be charging about $220/hr to use a Cessna172. I've figured that my PPL would cost about $10-12k if I am able to get it here. It might be better to just save the money and get everything done at home, but I really have the urge to fly right now!!

Reading about Ninja's situation really makes me think about what I need to do now, to save financially, before I move back home to start earning my ratings. I think it is far to easy to just go for a huge loan and hope that you can get a regional job when you graduate. I appreciate all the advice everyone has left regarding how to finance the training, and will keep that in mind. I'm going to start working my butt off here so I can save enough to pay for my training with cash. I'm only 24, but I have already paid off my school loans, and wow, what a huge relief that is. I hated having that burden on me for 5 years, even since I took out the first loan. Saving up enough money, and working hard BEFORE your training is the right way to go in my opinion. I have only been reading this forum for about a week now, but spend about 3-4 hours each day on it...it's addicting and has so much valuable information.

One question I have though.....and hopefully somoene can answer this....Why did Ninja have a bill from ATP of $100k, when they advertise the complete course for around $45-56k, depending on whether or not you have your PPL? I thought they offered a fixed cost program...am I wrong?

[notawannabee]

If I had to guess, it would be a combination of 2 things. One is not completing the coursework in the time the school quoted. Flight training is big business, and if a school thinks they can get students by saying " fly a commercial jet in 3 months " ( exaggerated ..I know ) and it will cost you this much ( fixed price ), it can be tempting. The truth is, SOMETIMES, and WITH SOME SCHOOLS, few of the students complete the training in the hours of flight included with the price.

Another reason may be because FLYING NINJA did the CAPT program which cost more..on top of all the license training...not sure of how much more , but I would guess about 20 thousand more.