changing careers - Page 2

Bandit_Driver · July 22nd, 2004, 16:54

It may never be advertised as a sure thing but the definately don't tell you the truth about the industry. They show you the up side and don't really inform you on how hard it is going to be and your odds are slightly better than becoming a pro athlete.

aloft · July 22nd, 2004, 20:41

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I see the odds of you spending $40K on training and still have no job at the end at about a 90% probability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see it at about a 100% probability if we're talking FlightSafety Academy, as their program costs substantially more than that.

Now, there is more than one way to skin this cat, and there are indeed shortcuts that can be taken. I'm in the same boat as the OP's hubby, minus the family. For us late-thirties career changers, time is of the essence so it's important to move as quickly as possible. The good news is that you don't need to spend a year or two instructing to get a job at a regional. Plenty of examples of that here on the boards. Yes, instructing/freight-dogging is the time-honored traditional way, but us old folks just can't afford the time. Fortunately, there are alternatives.

For training, ATP has the best deal going. $38k, in and out in 3 months. After that, Mesa Airlines runs their own pilot development program in Farmington, New Mexico. For someone with zero time or ratings, it's a 5 semester program that costs about $60k. For someone coming out of ATP with all their ratings, it's a one-semester program that costs ~$12k and guarantees an interview for an FO job with Mesa upon successful completion of the course--which itself consists of advanced instrument instruction, up to 20 hrs in a Beech Baron, a CRJ systems class and 40 hrs in a CRJ simulator. Essentially, it's a prep course for the Mesa interview and newhire training. The job's not guaranteed, but they hire about 90% of the program's graduates--it's yours to lose at the interview, in other words.

There are those who will thumb their nose at what I've suggested, and there are those who have done exactly what I've suggested and went from zero to hero in less than a year. While we're on the subject of salaries (trust me, we were--but I edited out that part out of my post), the $18-22k salaries everyone's tried to scare you with really only apply the first year, unless you accept employment with the true bottom-dwellers like Colgan, Great Lakes and the other no-name, never-heard-of-em regional airlines.

In sum, don't wast your money on FlightSafety, don't let people tell you it's impossible, and stop calling yourself "The Wife"--that's already been taken here, as has "Another Wife", so you'll have to settle for "Yet Another Wife" or something similar.

Best of luck.

wifeofawannabe · July 23rd, 2004, 08:58

Well you've nailed one thing is that all the schools have their marketing ploy. FS's fast track is similar to the school in NM that ASA is the only one who will accept an interview before really finishing school and maybe on line for a job. Another thing they keep saying is that other small airlines are ALMOST in contracts similar to ASA.
He does realize the family comes first and we know we have to have a certain amount of money saved up for at least 3 years to live on since money will be short.
If you don't go to the academies and take the "long road" where you school along with keeping your career then once you get all of your ratings and enough hours is it difficult to get a job with an airline or cargo or whatever if you don't have the contacts like you would have at the schools?
Also since 9/11 has it been brutally hard trying to get a flying job?

wifeofawannabe · July 23rd, 2004, 09:13

Well I won't call myself the Wife anymore!
So, Flight Safety and ATP are similar only different prices. They both say you can get an interview with either ASA (FS) and Mesa (ATP). They both probably say unless you have a screw loose there is no reason not to get hired. I hear FS is reputable (maybe because we live here in Atlanta), but is ATP as strong?

Thanks for all your help

"The Other Half" is that better?

Stone Cold · July 23rd, 2004, 09:23

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think ATP advertises ANY guaranteed interview. They are a very reputable company, form what I have seen and heard. They have a link on their web site to most of the regional/commuter/whatever you call them web sites and list their MINIMUM hiring times.

Both companies have their good and bad points, as you probably have learned. I will say again that there is no one way to get where you want to go, but you have to make the best decision for your family and where you ultimately want to end up. There are NO guarantees in this industry.

Good luck on whichever route ya'll decide to take.

ready2fly · July 23rd, 2004, 09:25

Best of luck to you and your family, wifeofwannabe! I couldn't have gotten as far as I have without the support of my incredible wife.

Like your husband, I was 36 when I obtained my Private. I'm currently 39 and about to wrap up my initial Flight Instructor Rating after earning my Commercial rating this past March.

Feel free to PM me with any quesitons you might have.

I kept my full-time job and flew two and three times a week. I studied pretty much every night that I wasn't flying and on most of my lunches at work.

It can be done, but know that it will take a LOT of his time.

Best of luck!

R2F

kellwolf · July 23rd, 2004, 11:12

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't go to the academies and take the "long road" where you school along with keeping your career then once you get all of your ratings and enough hours is it difficult to get a job with an airline or cargo or whatever if you don't have the contacts like you would have at the schools?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the academies operate under what is known as Part 141. It's an FAA certification based on specific curriculums and hours. It's essentially the FAA's approval to use a more focused program to get done in fewer hours. If you go to your local flight school and keep the full time job, you'll most likely be training under what is known as Part 61. This is the traditional method, and you get to work at your own pace and make your own schedule. As far as getting a job afterwards, outside of the individual flight schools (unless there is a "bridge" program) it's all about how many hours you have. Honestly, that Part 61 guy is gonna have more hours than the Part 141 guy. So, not only is it possible to land a freight job, traffic watch, banner tow, etc (IF you can find the jobs, that's the tricky part), you could probably acquire them faster. I thought about switching the Part 141, but decided against it. I've been very happy with the training at my local flight school, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Bandit_Driver · July 23rd, 2004, 16:31

I went the 141 route and then instucted in the 61 enviroment. Yes 141, does allow for obataining your ratings with lower times but I have seen very few people obtain the ratings at the reduced times. The only advantage that I see to the 141 schools is that they teach you much more than flying the airplane. If you go to a good 141 school you will come out with a better knowlege of Regs, Aircraft Systems, and other areas of flying that most 61 schools breeze past.

Good luck in what ever route you choose. It will be a battle [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] but it is winnable if you truely want to become an airline pilot. Every pilot I know is here because they don't except defeat or no for an answer...

Good Luck !!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

aloft · July 23rd, 2004, 17:17

[ QUOTE ]
So, Flight Safety and ATP are similar only different prices. They both say you can get an interview with either ASA (FS) and Mesa (ATP). They both probably say unless you have a screw loose there is no reason not to get hired. I hear FS is reputable (maybe because we live here in Atlanta), but is ATP as strong?

[/ QUOTE ]

FlightSafety is probably a better program but it's much much longer in duration and much more expensive. ATP is quite reputable as well, though some people find it hard to believe that you can earn all your ratings in 3 months and still retain anything. ATP hires most of their career program graduates as instructors, and most guys who do that have moved on to a regional within a year or so. ATP does NOT guarantee you an interview anywhere, though their management busts balls to get their instructors interviews and have been highly successful doing so (a very large number have gone to Chautauqua in particular over the last couple years).

The program that guarantees you the interview at Mesa with only 300 hrs total time is their MAPD PACE program. The key is the hours requirement--unless you serve an internship at an airline, no airline will touch you with only 300 hrs. Both the full MAPD and the abbreviated PACE program help mold you into what Mesa Airlines wants specifically; thus, you're a known quantity in terms of skills and knowledge. It's also a win for them because they get a greater return out of their initial training investment in you since you can't upgrade to captain until you've got the 1500 hrs required for the FAA ATP rating.

For someone your hubby's age (like me), I recommend the ATP/PACE combo simply for the time benefit; in less than a year he could be hired on as a jet FO at Mesa while the people who went the FlightSafety/Delta Connection Academy route still have months of training ahead of them. This is an industry where seniority trumps all, and the sooner your hubby can get on an airline's seniority list someplace, the better off he--and thus, your family--will be. The ATP/PACE combo is most direct line between where he is now and where he wants to be.

[ QUOTE ]
"The Other Half" is that better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe even "The Better Half"! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ecl!pse · July 24th, 2004, 22:37

Wifeofawannabe

Welcome to the boards! If you begin to question the flight school, I would highly suggest you get in contact with MQAAORD(sorry Amber, wanna help her!). She did her Private Pilot License training in 4 weeks at an airport with a training facility. If your husband is up for doubling up on the flying and studying, he can accomplish his ratings pretty quick, and it may cost less to go the airport FBO route. Just trying to offer some more help!

aviator · July 25th, 2004, 23:32

As an instructor at FSI mabye I can offer some advice. First off staking the future of a family on the ASA program may not be a smart decsion. The program is highly competitive and very subject to ASA's current needs. Right now a small number a canidates are moving through (they interviewed over 2 years ago, by the way) and a wait list is already in place. The future of the program is in no way set in stone, it can and has dissolved over night in the past. What 1 company's hiring practices will be by the time your husband finishes his CIME is anyones quess. I would suggest having a plan B, C, D, and E if ASA doesn't work out. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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July 22nd, 2004, 16:54	#26
Bandit_Driver Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DTW Posts: 1,801	Re: changing careers It may never be advertised as a sure thing but the definately don't tell you the truth about the industry. They show you the up side and don't really inform you on how hard it is going to be and your odds are slightly better than becoming a pro athlete.

July 22nd, 2004, 20:41	#27
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 7,029	Re: changing careers [ QUOTE ] Frankly, I see the odds of you spending $40K on training and still have no job at the end at about a 90% probability. [/ QUOTE ] I see it at about a 100% probability if we're talking FlightSafety Academy, as their program costs substantially more than that. Now, there is more than one way to skin this cat, and there are indeed shortcuts that can be taken. I'm in the same boat as the OP's hubby, minus the family. For us late-thirties career changers, time is of the essence so it's important to move as quickly as possible. The good news is that you don't need to spend a year or two instructing to get a job at a regional. Plenty of examples of that here on the boards. Yes, instructing/freight-dogging is the time-honored traditional way, but us old folks just can't afford the time. Fortunately, there are alternatives. For training, ATP has the best deal going. $38k, in and out in 3 months. After that, Mesa Airlines runs their own pilot development program in Farmington, New Mexico. For someone with zero time or ratings, it's a 5 semester program that costs about $60k. For someone coming out of ATP with all their ratings, it's a one-semester program that costs ~$12k and guarantees an interview for an FO job with Mesa upon successful completion of the course--which itself consists of advanced instrument instruction, up to 20 hrs in a Beech Baron, a CRJ systems class and 40 hrs in a CRJ simulator. Essentially, it's a prep course for the Mesa interview and newhire training. The job's not guaranteed, but they hire about 90% of the program's graduates--it's yours to lose at the interview, in other words. There are those who will thumb their nose at what I've suggested, and there are those who have done exactly what I've suggested and went from zero to hero in less than a year. While we're on the subject of salaries (trust me, we were--but I edited out that part out of my post), the $18-22k salaries everyone's tried to scare you with really only apply the first year, unless you accept employment with the true bottom-dwellers like Colgan, Great Lakes and the other no-name, never-heard-of-em regional airlines. In sum, don't wast your money on FlightSafety, don't let people tell you it's impossible, and stop calling yourself "The Wife"--that's already been taken here, as has "Another Wife", so you'll have to settle for "Yet Another Wife" or something similar. Best of luck.

July 23rd, 2004, 08:58	#28
wifeofawannabe Newbie Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 6	Re: changing careers Well you've nailed one thing is that all the schools have their marketing ploy. FS's fast track is similar to the school in NM that ASA is the only one who will accept an interview before really finishing school and maybe on line for a job. Another thing they keep saying is that other small airlines are ALMOST in contracts similar to ASA. He does realize the family comes first and we know we have to have a certain amount of money saved up for at least 3 years to live on since money will be short. If you don't go to the academies and take the "long road" where you school along with keeping your career then once you get all of your ratings and enough hours is it difficult to get a job with an airline or cargo or whatever if you don't have the contacts like you would have at the schools? Also since 9/11 has it been brutally hard trying to get a flying job?

July 23rd, 2004, 09:13	#29
wifeofawannabe Newbie Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 6	Re: changing careers Well I won't call myself the Wife anymore! So, Flight Safety and ATP are similar only different prices. They both say you can get an interview with either ASA (FS) and Mesa (ATP). They both probably say unless you have a screw loose there is no reason not to get hired. I hear FS is reputable (maybe because we live here in Atlanta), but is ATP as strong? Thanks for all your help "The Other Half" is that better?

July 23rd, 2004, 09:23	#30
Stone Cold Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: SE US & Kiev Posts: 3,039	Re: changing careers I could be wrong about this, but I don't think ATP advertises ANY guaranteed interview. They are a very reputable company, form what I have seen and heard. They have a link on their web site to most of the regional/commuter/whatever you call them web sites and list their MINIMUM hiring times. Both companies have their good and bad points, as you probably have learned. I will say again that there is no one way to get where you want to go, but you have to make the best decision for your family and where you ultimately want to end up. There are NO guarantees in this industry. Good luck on whichever route ya'll decide to take.

July 23rd, 2004, 09:25	#31
ready2fly Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: DFW Posts: 7,194	Re: changing careers Best of luck to you and your family, wifeofwannabe! I couldn't have gotten as far as I have without the support of my incredible wife. Like your husband, I was 36 when I obtained my Private. I'm currently 39 and about to wrap up my initial Flight Instructor Rating after earning my Commercial rating this past March. Feel free to PM me with any quesitons you might have. I kept my full-time job and flew two and three times a week. I studied pretty much every night that I wasn't flying and on most of my lunches at work. It can be done, but know that it will take a LOT of his time. Best of luck! R2F

July 23rd, 2004, 11:12	#32
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,892	Re: changing careers [ QUOTE ] If you don't go to the academies and take the "long road" where you school along with keeping your career then once you get all of your ratings and enough hours is it difficult to get a job with an airline or cargo or whatever if you don't have the contacts like you would have at the schools? [/ QUOTE ] Most of the academies operate under what is known as Part 141. It's an FAA certification based on specific curriculums and hours. It's essentially the FAA's approval to use a more focused program to get done in fewer hours. If you go to your local flight school and keep the full time job, you'll most likely be training under what is known as Part 61. This is the traditional method, and you get to work at your own pace and make your own schedule. As far as getting a job afterwards, outside of the individual flight schools (unless there is a "bridge" program) it's all about how many hours you have. Honestly, that Part 61 guy is gonna have more hours than the Part 141 guy. So, not only is it possible to land a freight job, traffic watch, banner tow, etc (IF you can find the jobs, that's the tricky part), you could probably acquire them faster. I thought about switching the Part 141, but decided against it. I've been very happy with the training at my local flight school, and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

July 23rd, 2004, 16:31	#33
Bandit_Driver Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DTW Posts: 1,801	Re: changing careers I went the 141 route and then instucted in the 61 enviroment. Yes 141, does allow for obataining your ratings with lower times but I have seen very few people obtain the ratings at the reduced times. The only advantage that I see to the 141 schools is that they teach you much more than flying the airplane. If you go to a good 141 school you will come out with a better knowlege of Regs, Aircraft Systems, and other areas of flying that most 61 schools breeze past. Good luck in what ever route you choose. It will be a battle [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif[/img] but it is winnable if you truely want to become an airline pilot. Every pilot I know is here because they don't except defeat or no for an answer... Good Luck !!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

July 23rd, 2004, 17:17	#34
aloft Old Skool Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Inside your OODA loop Posts: 7,029	Re: changing careers [ QUOTE ] So, Flight Safety and ATP are similar only different prices. They both say you can get an interview with either ASA (FS) and Mesa (ATP). They both probably say unless you have a screw loose there is no reason not to get hired. I hear FS is reputable (maybe because we live here in Atlanta), but is ATP as strong? [/ QUOTE ] FlightSafety is probably a better program but it's much much longer in duration and much more expensive. ATP is quite reputable as well, though some people find it hard to believe that you can earn all your ratings in 3 months and still retain anything. ATP hires most of their career program graduates as instructors, and most guys who do that have moved on to a regional within a year or so. ATP does NOT guarantee you an interview anywhere, though their management busts balls to get their instructors interviews and have been highly successful doing so (a very large number have gone to Chautauqua in particular over the last couple years). The program that guarantees you the interview at Mesa with only 300 hrs total time is their MAPD PACE program. The key is the hours requirement--unless you serve an internship at an airline, no airline will touch you with only 300 hrs. Both the full MAPD and the abbreviated PACE program help mold you into what Mesa Airlines wants specifically; thus, you're a known quantity in terms of skills and knowledge. It's also a win for them because they get a greater return out of their initial training investment in you since you can't upgrade to captain until you've got the 1500 hrs required for the FAA ATP rating. For someone your hubby's age (like me), I recommend the ATP/PACE combo simply for the time benefit; in less than a year he could be hired on as a jet FO at Mesa while the people who went the FlightSafety/Delta Connection Academy route still have months of training ahead of them. This is an industry where seniority trumps all, and the sooner your hubby can get on an airline's seniority list someplace, the better off he--and thus, your family--will be. The ATP/PACE combo is most direct line between where he is now and where he wants to be. [ QUOTE ] "The Other Half" is that better? [/ QUOTE ] Or maybe even "The Better Half"! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

July 24th, 2004, 22:37	#35
Ecl!pse Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Pittsburgh, PA/Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 395	Re: changing careers Wifeofawannabe Welcome to the boards! If you begin to question the flight school, I would highly suggest you get in contact with MQAAORD(sorry Amber, wanna help her!). She did her Private Pilot License training in 4 weeks at an airport with a training facility. If your husband is up for doubling up on the flying and studying, he can accomplish his ratings pretty quick, and it may cost less to go the airport FBO route. Just trying to offer some more help!

July 25th, 2004, 23:32	#36
aviator Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 385	Re: changing careers As an instructor at FSI mabye I can offer some advice. First off staking the future of a family on the ASA program may not be a smart decsion. The program is highly competitive and very subject to ASA's current needs. Right now a small number a canidates are moving through (they interviewed over 2 years ago, by the way) and a wait list is already in place. The future of the program is in no way set in stone, it can and has dissolved over night in the past. What 1 company's hiring practices will be by the time your husband finishes his CIME is anyones quess. I would suggest having a plan B, C, D, and E if ASA doesn't work out. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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