Help With a Student

[saria19]

At my flight school, there is one particular student who has had a number of chances to straighten up and "fly right" but seems to fall down on every opportunity in my eyes. He lies, steals, parties relentlessly, refers to himself as Captain, and when we confront him, he acts sorry, wanders off to the owner of the school and claims that we harass and bully him since he is "young, rich, and handsome".

I've tried to be professional, but this guy really hits rock bottom in my opinion and is not cut out to be a pilot. My co-workers agree with me, and we seriously want him out and gone. We've denied him the opportunity to solo, had talks, and told him point blank that we won't ever be signing him off to test for a license; and he brushes us off, declaring that we can't do anything against him. I probably haven't helped the situation when once I actually exploded and declared that if he's a Captain, then I am a Brigade General and the chief flight instructor is General of the Army.

I'm really at wits end, and I don't want to fly with this guy anymore, nor do any of my co-workers. Unfortunately, the owner keeps telling us to fly him since he has been told we won't be letting him move on with training, and he doesn't seem to care.

Not quite sure what to do now except to keep scheduling all my other students and not leave any availability for him since we can't convince him to leave. Any advice?

[Inverted25]

Let him scare himself enough to leave. Take him up say 10,000 and put the plane in the a spin and act as though you have suicidal intentions and let him think that if he doesnt recover the airplane you both will die. Sometime people just need the scared out of them.

[AviatorGator]

Originally Posted by saria19

At my flight school, there is one particular student who has had a number of chances to straighten up and "fly right" but seems to fall down on every opportunity in my eyes. He lies, steals, parties relentlessly, refers to himself as Captain, and when we confront him, he acts sorry, wanders off to the owner of the school and claims that we harass and bully him since he is "young, rich, and handsome".

I've tried to be professional, but this guy really hits rock bottom in my opinion and is not cut out to be a pilot. My co-workers agree with me, and we seriously want him out and gone. We've denied him the opportunity to solo, had talks, and told him point blank that we won't ever be signing him off to test for a license; and he brushes us off, declaring that we can't do anything against him. I probably haven't helped the situation when once I actually exploded and declared that if he's a Captain, then I am a Brigade General and the chief flight instructor is General of the Army.

I'm really at wits end, and I don't want to fly with this guy anymore, nor do any of my co-workers. Unfortunately, the owner keeps telling us to fly him since he has been told we won't be letting him move on with training, and he doesn't seem to care.

Not quite sure what to do now except to keep scheduling all my other students and not leave any availability for him since we can't convince him to leave. Any advice?

How old is this clown?

[shdw]

File a report with the local FSDO would be the next step. Is the owner the chief CFI? If not, what does the chief CFI think about him? Has he even flown with this guy?

It essentially works up a chain of command, there is information about how to go about problematic students in one of those FAA instructor books. I can't recall where and don't have time right now to look it up. But if I remember right, after you have had other instructors evaluate the individual the next step is to the FSDO.

Point is, get it on paper so you don't get your butt in trouble down the road. With these sew happy people that are so fast to declare discrimination it is always good to leave a big long paper trail.

[PFGiardino]

Have your coworkers actually flown with him, or do they just take your word for it?

If he knows you won't be signing him off due to morals unbecoming of a private pilot/hazardous attitudes, then so what? He's your customer, and if he wants to waste his apparently never ending money supply to keep your operation going, then fine. Absolutely document everything though.

And to echo Gator, how old is he? Is it a fourteen year old whose lawyer daddy wants him to have an extra-curricular?

Unfortunately, he will most likely find a school/indie CFI that will solo him. If it's as bad as you say, I wouldn't, but someone will sell out. Money talks.

PS, I know you, you may not remember me. ERAU.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by saria19

lies, steals, refers to himself as Captain,

Perfectly good enough grounds not to fly with him anymore.

We've denied him the opportunity to solo, had talks, and told him point blank that we won't ever be signing him off to test for a license;

Then this has gone too far already.

I don't want to fly with this guy anymore,

Will it mean your job if you don't fly with him?
If so, I don't quite like the feel of that school. My walking boots would be next to the door waiting for a better flight school to hire me.

the owner keeps telling us to fly him since he has been told we won't be letting him move on with training, and he doesn't seem to care.

Red Light.
And when daddy war bucks comes to town wondering why Jr. isn't a pilot yet and you say, "I won't sign him off" !?
Guessing you are 61.
Guess who that comes back on.
Jr. will say anything.

Missy, you should consider yourself done with that student.
--------

If it means your job and you stay, take a notepad and write down every flight task he does with in standards and which ones do not meet standards. At the end of each lesson make him read it and sign it. You keep it.


Then grab a beer.

[JOEFRIDAY2]

You posted that he lies and steals. Doesn't your school have a morals clause in the contract?

I would have a prayer meeting with this student and 3 members of the staff and issue a written letter that if these incidents do not stop then you will start issuing suspensions of 7-30 days as well as having him write a report on the importance of being professional and presenting that report to the entire school.

You start suspending this student and he will get the idea. Yes daddy might show up and that might be a good thing.

Joe

[poser765]

You never really addressed his flying skills. Maybe it was implied and I just didn't get it, but all I DID get from your post is that home boy is a . D-baggery I'm afraid is not enough to go to a fsdo and give them a warning. I've had my share of Tool students, and students who are far from motivated. The former you just have to deal with, and the later tend to take care of themselves.

[saria19]

The owner is not the chief instructor, and ALL instructors at the school have flown with him, and we all agree on the same thing. None of us want this guy flying, especially with our names attached to him.

It will not be the end of my job if I refuse to fly with him. As it stands now, the owner is siding with us but until he can convince "daddy warbucks" that Jr. isn't cut out for this, then he feels we are stuck with the guy.

Jr. by the way, is 25, older than me but younger than the other instructors at the school, so he naturally feels that he should be able to "charm and intimidate" me better than he could my colleagues.

As for his flying skills: sometimes he does well. Most of the time he acts like it is his first time in the aircraft.

What led to the fiasco of me refusing to fly with him is that on takeoff one day, when he had the controls, I turned my head to check for traffic that was joining the downwind, and he took his hands off the controls at 300 ft., pulled out a camera, and starts snapping pictures! I turn my head back to tell him that I had found the traffic and it was no factor, and he asks me if I want my picture taken. I ended the flight immediately.

I am seriously considering the spins with suicidal intentions idea though... He hates stalls.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by saria19

At my flight school, there is one particular student who has had a number of chances to straighten up and "fly right" but seems to fall down on every opportunity in my eyes. He lies, steals, parties relentlessly, refers to himself as Captain, and when we confront him, he acts sorry, wanders off to the owner of the school and claims that we harass and bully him since he is "young, rich, and handsome".

Please tell me you're kidding about the bolded part! Wow. He deserves a MikeD ass kicking up and down the ramp just for that comment alone!

I've tried to be professional, but this guy really hits rock bottom in my opinion and is not cut out to be a pilot. My co-workers agree with me, and we seriously want him out and gone. We've denied him the opportunity to solo, had talks, and told him point blank that we won't ever be signing him off to test for a license; and he brushes us off, declaring that we can't do anything against him. I probably haven't helped the situation when once I actually exploded and declared that if he's a Captain, then I am a Brigade General and the chief flight instructor is General of the Army.

I'm really at wits end, and I don't want to fly with this guy anymore, nor do any of my co-workers. Unfortunately, the owner keeps telling us to fly him since he has been told we won't be letting him move on with training, and he doesn't seem to care.

Not quite sure what to do now except to keep scheduling all my other students and not leave any availability for him since we can't convince him to leave. Any advice?

Tough situation there, and from what you describe, the guy definitely doesn't belong as a pilot. Good work on IDing the guy straight out and calling him for what he is.....ie- not letting $$$ get in the way of weeding out someone who truly doesn't belong in the air with other people (or birds for that matter). What sucks is the lack of backup you're receiving. It's going to come down to either this guy kills himself or someone else along with him; and if the owner wants to take that risk by keeping this guy around, then the owner will assume ALL responsibility when (not if, but WHEN) it happens. If you have the kind of relationship with the owner where you feel you can relay something like this to him, I'd do so. A guy like this isn't worth the liability.

[jrh]

Here's how I would handle it. Since it's not an issue potentially costing you your job, you have two options--fly with him, or don't. Here's how I would approach the options:

Have a talk with him and say, "I don't think I'm the right instructor for you. You'll need to find a different instructor to complete your training. Good luck in the future." There. Done.

Or...

Have a talk with him and say, "I've already expressed my concerns about both your proficiency level and attitude towards flying. That's why I'm not willing to sign you off for anything. Don't expect this stance to change. Now, you have two choices. If you'd like to find a different instructor, that's fine. If you'd like to keep flying with me, I'm willing to fly with you. Option #2 is kind of pointless since it won't lead to any progression in your training, but if you want to show up and go flying, we can work on whatever you want to work on."

Then have fun burning holes in the sky with the guy without any pressure to sign him off for anything.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by jrh

Here's how I would handle it. Since it's not an issue potentially costing you your job, you have two options--fly with him, or don't. Here's how I would approach the options:

Have a talk with him and say, "I don't think I'm the right instructor for you. You'll need to find a different instructor to complete your training. Good luck in the future." There. Done.

Or...

Have a talk with him and say, "I've already expressed my concerns about both your proficiency level and attitude towards flying. That's why I'm not willing to sign you off for anything. Don't expect this stance to change. Now, you have two choices. If you'd like to find a different instructor, that's fine. If you'd like to keep flying with me, I'm willing to fly with you. Option #2 is kind of pointless since it won't lead to any progression in your training, but if you want to show up and go flying, we can work on whatever you want to work on."

Then have fun burning holes in the sky with the guy without any pressure to sign him off for anything.

I agree with this. If the boss isn't willing to kick him to the curb, let the student know that you aren't going to sign him off and make it his choice to continue the training.

[Mike H]

saria19, you can tell the guy in all sincerity that you're not the right instructor for him- (the instructor he needs is MikeD) Offer him the names of one or two of the other instructors who you think may be able to handle him, or who at least won't be intimidated by him.

And then walk away from him.

[AndrewT]

[QUOTE=saria19;1340352]claims that we harass and bully him since he is "young, rich, and handsome".
QUOTE]


If his claims are anywhere near the turth, you're going about this wrong way. What you need to do is marry him, make sure there is no prenup, get him to make you the sole beneficiary of his fortune, then sign him off to solo. Take care of two birds with one stone as it were cause you'll be rich and you won't have to fly with him anymore.

Its too bad I didn't graduate from law school yet otherwise I'd totally help you out with the paperwork for a small fee, of course....and a percentage of the estate.



J/K, of course.

[jynxyjoe]

I'd just keep taking his money. I don't care how much he annoys the crap outa me.

I've told this story before but I'll tell it again. I had a student problem once and I said the following. "It's your money, it's about to be my money, and I fly just fine." He left, but this bit of eloquence may not work on your jerk for a student. In that case, keep taking his money.

[saria19]

MikeD: I was not kidding on that guy saying that we were picking on him for being "young, rich, and handsome". If you would like to come and kick his butt for me, I'll give you his address!

The student in question already knows that I won't sign him off. I have told him multiple times and suggested he look else where. He has chosen to remain at the school, and I believe he thinks that he can wear us down enough to just sign him off. I find this especially easy to believe when after a particularly bad flight, when he asks again if he can solo or get a sign off, and I in turn reply in my by now traditional "no", he starts to try to "charm" me by making what he believes are glances meant to cause girls to swoon, asks me out to dinner, or other suggestive gestures.

As for marriage with no prenup: HELLZ NO! I would sooner marry a cow! Besides, even if I did do that, my name would still be attached to his certificate. So, my career would still be in trouble afterwards.

One question for you guys though, as someone trained to perform aerobatic flight, would I be allowed to take a passenger with me one day when I went up to practice a couple of manuevers? And could this person be hungover without me worrying about any consequences since they wouldn't ever be in control of the aircraft?

[shdw]

Originally Posted by saria19

One question for you guys though, as someone trained to perform aerobatic flight, would I be allowed to take a passenger with me one day when I went up to practice a couple of manuevers? And could this person be hungover without me worrying about any consequences since they wouldn't ever be in control of the aircraft?

If you both have a parachute and they are merely a passenger, sure. If you like cleaning up puke it sounds like a wonderful idea.

[Inverted25]

I am seriously considering the spins with suicidal intentions idea though... He hates stalls.

While it would be amusing I really was just kidding around. It was late and seemed like a good idea after a few beers.

[PeterPilot]

Originally Posted by saria19

At my flight school, there is one particular student who has had a number of chances to straighten up and "fly right" but seems to fall down on every opportunity in my eyes. He lies, steals, parties relentlessly, refers to himself as Captain,

<snip>

Any advice?

Take him to the Air Force recruiting office.

[escapepilot]

A lot of good advice, but I don't think I'd be so diplomatic. I do like the spin suggestion, but a little obvious...unless he inadvertently gets into during stalls (don't help recover). If he truly wants the signoff, then he MUST act like PIC. Dream up the most sadistic, difficult scenario you can and have him fly it. Forget PTS...that's minimums. Be as tough as you can be and just sit back and enjoy the ride as best you can. Think Drill Instructor. He obviously has a terrible attitude.

OR, if ALL of the instructors there feel as you do, you might want to approach the owner as a group and say none of you are willing to fly w/ such a risky student. Form your own little mini-union.

[Doug Taylor]

The flight school owner needs to step up.

If the student doesn't respect the CFI's, he certainly isn't respecting the aircraft or the FARS which is may culminate into a deadly hazard for anyone flying with him, after him or around him.

The last thing you want to do is have "Mr. Young, Rich and Handsome" out trying to impress the ladies with his air combat maneuvers, then hop into an aircraft after him and doubt the structural integrity of the aircraft.

[Roger, Roger]

Tell him about the Gulfstream pay-to-play program. Sounds like he'd be all up ons that gravy train.

[mshunter]

Tell the TSA he sys he just wants to learn how to fly, not how to land.

[Roger, Roger]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Tell the TSA he sys he just wants to learn how to fly, not how to land.

I likes the ways youse thinks.

[saria19]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

While it would be amusing I really was just kidding around. It was late and seemed like a good idea after a few beers.

If it makes you feel better, I knew you were teasing so I let my own sense of humor reply to your suggestion. Though, I did in a way use your joke as a bit of advice!

And best news I can give: the clown is leaving! Just as I thought, he showed up hungover this morning, and I already had permission to go ahead (laughs evilly). Never thought he would actually use the parachute and jump out of the plane though...