CFI Union

[Jbroz04]

CFIs are a dime a dozen right now. I could fire the whole staff and have the spots filled in 3 days.

But quality CFI's are hard to find! If you dont like working for a school get a part time job then try to go independent! I dont know what its like in other areas of the country but here in Ohio where I live you can actually do well as a Independent because there are alot of airports that have no flight school but a good number of airplanes there.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

But quality CFI's are hard to find!

True, but to form a union, you need some sort of bargaining chip. With the market the way it is, it would be easier for the company to fire the staff and bring in a new team than it would be to support a union. Just complaining that your job sucks is not good enough.

[ryanmickG]

Mojo is an Ass Chief.

[HeyEng]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

But quality CFI's are hard to find! If you dont like working for a school get a part time job then try to go independent! I dont know what its like in other areas of the country but here in Ohio where I live you can actually do well as a Independent because there are alot of airports that have no flight school but a good number of airplanes there.

That is what I am saying. Most of the freelance guys I know have more business than they know what to do with. I would guess Blackhawk is pretty busy too and I think he just does the "fun stuff". That is my plan when I hang up my Air Force bag; the freelance gig. Of course, I will have a nice retirement for the "slow times".

[Jbroz04]

The fun stuff is what I plan to do for a living. Except I hope to make it on the airshow circuit and still teach aerobatics on off time. I love to dream

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by jhugz

30k For Ass Chief

Is that all they are worth??

[speedbreaker]

Only 25k? boy you're selling yourself very short,or you lack big on flight hours

Originally Posted by jhugz

No doubt about it, it would be nice.

As said before more then fair wages for a CFI would be:

25k For CFI
30k For Ass Chief
35k For Chief

Plus

Good Dental/Medical, Matching 401k, Paid Vacation, and monthly re-currency paid for by company.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by speedbreaker

Only 25k? boy you're selling yourself very short,or you lack big on flight hours

Selling myself short or trying to be realistic? How about the big boys in the jets help make this job easier and get their wages bumped up to more then what I'm trying to get for a first year instructor at a company. Kinda hard to negotiate 40k when someone flying a 100 seat jet is making 22k their first year.

[Jbroz04]

Depends. If you specliaze in something and your good at it you can make 40-50k as a flight instructor. Again this isnt easy. But if you truley have a specliaty that is hard to dupilcate you can make good money teaching it! Example Aerobatics, Glass cockpit, Tailwhee/Sea Plane, Pitts Transition etc etc

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

Depends. If you specliaze in something and your good at it you can make 40-50k as a flight instructor. Again this isnt easy. But if you truley have a specliaty that is hard to dupilcate you can make good money teaching it! Example Aerobatics, Glass cockpit, Tailwhee/Sea Plane, Pitts Transition etc etc

Specialized or not...CFI's should not be making Mickey D's drive-thru wages.

[Jbroz04]

I'm not justifiying the wages I'm just saying how you can attempt to improve yours. Like me for example. I have no desire to fly airlines for a living so my goals are a little different from yours. But right now I'm working on getting both my CFI-A and CFI-G and I'm flying any tailwheel airplane I can find. Than this summer I will do instruction in both airplanes and gliders and also fly the Pawnee at the glider strip to build a ton of tailwheel time. My goal is to become extremely proficient in tail wheel airplanes and gliders and than I plan to specialize in teaching tailwheel airplanes and gliders only. Eventually I want to teach aerobatic as well but I need alot more training in that to even think about trying to show someone else how to do it. Last thing I would want to do is teach improper technique.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

I'm not justifiying the wages I'm just saying how you can attempt to improve yours. Like me for example. I have no desire to fly airlines for a living so my goals are a little different from yours. But right now I'm working on getting both my CFI-A and CFI-G and I'm flying any tailwheel airplane I can find. Than this summer I will do instruction in both airplanes and gliders and also fly the Pawnee at the glider strip to build a ton of tailwheel time. My goal is to become extremely proficient in tail wheel airplanes and gliders and than I plan to specialize in teaching tailwheel airplanes and gliders only. Eventually I want to teach aerobatic as well but I need alot more training in that to even think about trying to show someone else how to do it. Last thing I would want to do is teach improper technique.

There should be no need to specialize. NO NEED AT ALL. I deserve a fair wage and I plan to try and start fighting for it.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by jhugz

There should be no need to specialize. NO NEED AT ALL. I deserve a fair wage and I plan to try and start fighting for it.

This makes me think that if Flight instructors made a real world specialty instructor wage (golf/tennis instructor), then maybe a real pilot shortage would happen.
Maybe by us reproducing ourselves so cheaply, we are in turn hurting our wages in our next job.

Disclaimer: I'm not interested in making flight training exclusively for the rich, though it could be argued it already is, I would hope anybody who wants to be a pilot to be able to realize their dream.

Just thinking while typing.

[ppragman]

Is this a joke?

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by ppragman

Is this a joke?

Yes Pat...I enjoying making threads like this in my free time.

[Jbroz04]

I wasn't joking when saying that I think specializng can earn you more money than the average CFI. But I would love to become a golf pro. My buddy played in college and now is a instructor at a local private golfing club and makes like 45 a hour giving golfing lessons and its only his second year. Some the other pros in the area make upwards of 100 a hour teaching golf. Oh the life. I guess I"ll just stick to Tiger Woods Pro Tour 10!

[HeyEng]

Originally Posted by Douglas

This makes me think that if Flight instructors made a real world specialty instructor wage (golf/tennis instructor), then maybe a real pilot shortage would happen.
Maybe by us reproducing ourselves so cheaply, we are in turn hurting our wages in our next job.

Disclaimer: I'm not interested in making flight training exclusively for the rich, though it could be argued it already is, I would hope anybody who wants to be a pilot to be able to realize their dream.

Just thinking while typing.

BINGO! As long as people continue to THEMSELVES out for the opportunity to fly then this problem will continue. There are professional instructors out there that MAKE A DAMN GOOD living. They are good at what they do and refuse to work for substandard pay. I know of a fella up in NY that does nothing but accelerated instrument training. You have to bring your own airplane and he has a VERY SIMPLE one page ad online and stays booked 6 months out. Nothing fancy, he is just really good at what he does and this brings plenty of business his way. For every 8-10 days he works, he makes 4500 gross. Not bad, as far as I am concerned. I would love for Blackhawk to chime in here, because I tend to think he too stays pretty damn busy.

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by jhugz

I deserve a fair wage and I plan to try and start fighting for it.

Only curious, but what constitutes 'deserving' a fair wage?

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Zero1Niner

Only curious, but what constitutes 'deserving' a fair wage?

I busted my ass to be were I am at along w/ all the other CFI's.

WE DESERVE FAIR COMPENSATION FOR OUR WORK.

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by jhugz

I busted my ass to be were I am at along w/ all the other CFI's.

WE DESERVE FAIR COMPENSATION FOR OUR WORK.

as one of the aforementioned CFI's that busted his ass to get where I am, I hardly equate that to 'deserving' anything quite honestly.

We all had the choice of evaluating the job market for this type of job prior to deciding to invest our time and money in pursuing a career in this field. Its always better to make decisions based on the facts, not desires.

Its like saying 'well I busted my ass and bought that investment property in 2006 with every penny of my hard-earned life savings, and I deserve to make a profit on that place (even though its now worth half of what you paid now and you are upside down on the mortgage, and the bank wants to call the loan)'. The harsh reality about anything in this world is its supply and demand driven. Not 'demanded'. The whole entitlement mindset always blows me away a little. It always comes off to me like a reality disconnect somehow.

[Jbroz04]

We all had the choice of evaluating the job market for this type of job prior to deciding to invest our time and money in pursuing a career in this field. Its always better to make decisions based on the facts, not desires.

I dont know that you can really put it any better than that. You knew what the wages and working conditions were like before you entered this career field. If you didnt, that is your own fault for not doing your doing your homework.

The harsh reality about anything in this world is its supply and demand driven.

This goes back to why focusing on one area of training such as accelerated instrument, will earn you more money. There is a abundance of primary instructors. That means employers dont have to pay you more than dirt because they know there will be another one lined up to take your place. Now if you offered a type of training that was hard to duplicate though. You now have leverage to ask for higher wages.

The whole entitlement mindset always blows me away a little. It always comes off to me like a reality disconnect somehow.

It is an extreme disconnect with reality. Aviation isnt the only place that it exist. At the warehouse I run we have the same issue. Employees are always bickering about how they are worth more. And the facts are they arent. We get hudnreds of job applications a week. My boss always says that we pay them too much if we are getting that many applications. Everytime an employee comes and says I will quit if I dont get more money I make their life easier and fire them. I can replace them in less than 20 minutes. And if they have reached the point that they are complaining for higher wages than their attitude will effect the workers around them and its time for them to hit the streets.

[Zero1Niner]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

It is an extreme disconnect with reality. Aviation isnt the only place that it exist. At the warehouse I run we have the same issue. Employees are always bickering about how they are worth more. And the facts are they arent. We get hudnreds of job applications a week. My boss always says that we pay them too much if we are getting that many applications. Everytime an employee comes and says I will quit if I dont get more money I make their life easier and fire them. I can replace them in less than 20 minutes. And if they have reached the point that they are complaining for higher wages than their attitude will effect the workers around them and its time for them to hit the streets.

This attitude mostly comes from people with no business experience. If they ever had a business, or at least understood how to run a business, these comments would never pass their lips.

The fact is, the business owner, that took all of the risk to start the business, and bears the weight of keeping the business functioning and healthy, so that the employees HAVE a job to go to, should profit from his efforts. And most business owners have to weather the insane ups and downs of changing market conditions, . They often do not have the luxury of the steady paycheck that the employees have.

And again, supply and demand law states that if there are enough people that are willing to work for X, than that becomes the market price. Its simple economics really. You dont have to like it, but whatever.

And another thing...we all say we want to be paid a 'fair' wage (which results in higher cost to the consumer of course). But when the time comes for that individual to pony up for services or products that they need, the majority (not all, but a substantial majority) will shop their ass off for the best price. They wont pay the premium for someone else to make a 'fair' wage. They simply look for the best deal. Its crazy hypocritical.

[Jbroz04]

The fact is, the business owner, that took all of the risk to start the business, and bears the weight of keeping the business functioning and healthy, so that the employees HAVE a job to go to, should profit from his efforts

Here is a fact for you. The owner of the warehouse I run and the 7 grocery stores we serve only make .8% profit off total sales. Way less than you would think!

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Zero1Niner

This attitude mostly comes from people with no business experience. If they ever had a business, or at least understood how to run a business, these comments would never pass their lips.

According to your thoughts all employees are expendable and you should treat them like crap, pay crap wages, and not have any respect for them at all. If you had any respect for them you would at least be able to get them out of the poverty level.

The fact is, the business owner, that took all of the risk to start the business, and bears the weight of keeping the business functioning and healthy, so that the employees HAVE a job to go to, should profit from his efforts. And most business owners have to weather the insane ups and downs of changing market conditions, . They often do not have the luxury of the steady paycheck that the employees have.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. The employee in this industry bears all the weight of the ups and downs. The overhead for a flight school at least mine is a joke. The school doesn't own any of the airplanes. It takes 20% off the top of every airplane rental and 60% off the top of all instruction. The only over head is the building rent, utilities, and insurance. If we have a bad month in terms of flight instruction like my last two months of 700 dollar pay checks then I'm the one hosed not management. He doesn't have to pay me if I don't have students, but yet I still have to put in 40 hours a week and come in once a month on my day off for an unpaid meeting. When the flying gets bad the MX shop picks up the slack.

And again, supply and demand law states that if there are enough people that are willing to work for X, than that becomes the market price. Its simple economics really. You dont have to like it, but whatever.

I don't have to like it nor do I have to accept it. I'm tired of being part of the problem, I want to be part of the solution. I admit I was wrong in some of my old ways but this being my first aviation job w/ hopefully many more to come I am done destroying the industry and willing to start taking steps to improve it.

And another thing...we all say we want to be paid a 'fair' wage (which results in higher cost to the consumer of course). But when the time comes for that individual to pony up for services or products that they need, the majority (not all, but a substantial majority) will shop their ass off for the best price. They wont pay the premium for someone else to make a 'fair' wage. They simply look for the best deal. Its crazy hypocritical.

It may cost the consumer more but we have a pretty darn good student base that would stay for a price jump as long as it isn't to drastic.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

Really we get it all ready, you run a warehouse fantastic for you. I know that you have enough money in your family not to care what you make as a pilot. I knew wages were crap going into the game but change has to start somewhere.