Over 8 hours of flight instruction...

[av8or91]

Thanks for all the clarification here. Ive always understood the 8 hours in any 24 hour period but I was more or less just asking what should be done if you accidentally go over and you want to do the right thing. I had a local flight and a longer cross country so that is how I came to 7.9. I wasnt really paying attention to this as I normally have 1 or 2 flight a day that don't come near 8 hours.

[subpilot]

In my opinion, if you went slightly over once by accident then log it and chock it up as a mistake. The problem is when you willfully go over, routinely go over, or falsify your logbook. File a NASA form if you are worried about certificate action.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by jhugz

You are twisting this reg so badly and then dragging names of aviation lawyers in this mess to try to rectify this stupidity. Yes, I would say so.

Clarifying where it came from and verifying those notes is "dragging" people in? My apologies for being so imperfect as to misconstrue a regulation around higher beings, like you, that don't make mistakes.

Maybe you should consider that change you spoke of on the general thread. It is pretty clear something already has you rubbed the wrong way to be calling other members stupid for not understanding something. I certainly hope you don't treat your students in this manner.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by shdw

Clarifying where it came from and verifying those notes is "dragging" people in? My apologies for being so imperfect as to misconstrue a regulation around higher beings, like you, that don't make mistakes.

Maybe you should consider that change you spoke of on the general thread. It is pretty clear something already has you rubbed the wrong way to be calling other members stupid for not understanding something. I certainly hope you don't treat your students in this manner.

The problem is you are not admitting your wrong, which as a CFI you should. I've had students correct me before and it doesn't hurt my feelings. If your wrong admit it don't try to justify it by dragging names into a forum where they may or may not of said this stuff.

As for questioning how I treat my students that is just another shining example of your maturity.

I again say, want a shovel?

[SteveC]

Doug's living room =

1. A place for people to learn about aviation schtuff.
2. A place to enjoy being with people with similar interests.
3. All of the above.

A man's gotta ask himself, "Which one of the above are we choosing today?"

[cencal83406]

Originally Posted by subpilot

I admit I don't know supplement and flag rules but for domestic the 8 hour limit is per duty period and not on a rolling 24 hour lookback.

Well that's the 121 flying I do.... perhaps I'm just confused....

Yeah, I know on the duty period that you have the 8 hour "limit". But I thought that according to Whitlow, for rest purposes, you can't have more than 8 hours of flying in a 24 hour lookback window (rolling, then, obviously) without having x amount of rest after it. Or is Whitlow more a duty thing? Didn't get a great explanation of Whitlow here at work all I know is that we are to Fear Whitlow.

[subpilot]

Originally Posted by cencal83406

Well that's the 121 flying I do.... perhaps I'm just confused....

Yeah, I know on the duty period that you have the 8 hour "limit". But I thought that according to Whitlow, for rest purposes, you can't have more than 8 hours of flying in a 24 hour lookback window (rolling, then, obviously) without having x amount of rest after it. Or is Whitlow more a duty thing? Didn't get a great explanation of Whitlow here at work all I know is that we are to Fear Whitlow.

Whitlow has to do with having at least 8 hours rest in the past 24 hours. In other words, if you are coming off of reduced rest then it limits your next days duty period.

Current regulations limit scheduled flight time for domestic operations to a maximum of 8 hours in a single duty period, with that limit to be exceeded only under circumstances beyond a carrier’s control. Another section of the rule requires that pilots "look back" after every arrival and find at least an 8-hour scheduled rest period during the previous 24 hours.
FAA Deputy Chief Counsel James Whitlow in November 2000 issued an interpretation of the rule in terms of delays, stating, "If, when using the actual expected flight time [for a flight segment], the carrier cannot find at least eight hours of look-back rest upon arrival, then the flight may not depart [on that segment]."

source: http://www2.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopMod...DocumentID=422

[cencal83406]

Originally Posted by subpilot

Whitlow has to do with having at least 8 hours rest in the past 24 hours. In other words, if you are coming off of reduced rest then it limits your next days duty period.



source: http://www2.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopMod...DocumentID=422

Thanks I should have known it more clearly but didn't!

[mojo6911]

Lets throw another curveball.

Scenario: You are an MEI training a CMEL initial application, which requires

10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section)

From my understanding, you aren't providing instruction during this time, but you are required to be there as an authorized instructor. Lets say you do a 1.5 and 1.6 hour lesson with a student, then do the long cross country where the student is performing the duties of PIC for a 5 hour XC. This is all completed in the same day.

Just a scenario, what do you guys think? Is this providing instruction or not?

[saria19]

You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by saria19

You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.

It has nothing to do with being scheduled. The reg, as posted earlier, is pretty clear.

[Maurus]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Lets throw another curveball.

Scenario: You are an MEI training a CMEL initial application, which requires



From my understanding, you aren't providing instruction during this time, but you are required to be there as an authorized instructor. Lets say you do a 1.5 and 1.6 hour lesson with a student, then do the long cross country where the student is performing the duties of PIC for a 5 hour XC. This is all completed in the same day.

Just a scenario, what do you guys think? Is this providing instruction or not?

Insteresting question, but the only way to prove an authorized instructor was in the aircraft would be to log dual given. Otherwise it wouldn't be a solo flight and the time could not be used.

[subpilot]

Originally Posted by saria19

You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.

scheduled is the 121 (and maybe 135?) rule. For instructing it is actual time.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by jhugz

The problem is you are not admitting your wrong, which as a CFI you should.

Originally Posted by shdw

Let me see if I am getting this than.

Post 35, the post you quoted, asking if I wanted a shovel. Sounds to me like I am seeing if I understood what he was saying.

Originally Posted by shdw

OP: Sorry for confusing you bud, apparently I was wrong.

Post 47, the same post you quoted me saying, "I twisted the regs." That post was when I admitted my misunderstanding.

One post was made, other than the original reply, prior to this, post 30, where I clarified where I got the information from. I also verified that by going back through my notes from the classes the information was given. Now maybe I misunderstood them, I sure hope that is the case, it is honestly too long ago for me to remember. However, aren't instructors entitled to misunderstandings now and again?

Originally Posted by jhugz

I again say, want a shovel?

After failing to read, making a snide remark, and then directly calling someone trying to learn something stupid you repeat this. This is how you demonstrate maturity? Common man, seriously.

This is why I asked if you do that with your students. You have to listen to what a person is saying and trying to understand before you jump down their throat. Even then, snide remarks or bashing someones ego (calling them stupid) will never promote learning under any situation. I do hope you give that courtesy to your paying customers.

Anyways, that is it for me here and again my apologies to the OP for the confusion. I do hope you take this as an effort to point out why what you did was wrong and not as a personal attack. Good day Jhugz.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by Maurus

Insteresting question, but the only way to prove an authorized instructor was in the aircraft would be to log dual given. Otherwise it wouldn't be a solo flight and the time could not be used.

Well, I log it as PIC for the student and in the remarks section, I put "Performing the duties of PIC" and sign the logbook. Our DPEs prefer that, since that time should really be 10 hours of solo. I have no idea what the correct way to log it is, since the reg isn't that clear. Just throwing the scenario out there for discussion.

[poser765]

Originally Posted by RumpleTumbler

I'd like to work somewhere I can fly 8 hours a day 7 days a week.

7*8=56/7=8

It seems impossible to break if you don't fly over 8 hours a day. Look at the math.

Why on earth would you want to fly 8 hours a day 7 days? Work smarter, not harder.

[anthenry]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Lets throw another curveball.

Scenario: You are an MEI training a CMEL initial application, which requires



From my understanding, you aren't providing instruction during this time, but you are required to be there as an authorized instructor. Lets say you do a 1.5 and 1.6 hour lesson with a student, then do the long cross country where the student is performing the duties of PIC for a 5 hour XC. This is all completed in the same day.

Just a scenario, what do you guys think? Is this providing instruction or not?

You can go over 8 hours in this situation, and here is why. While on a supervised solo you are acting are monitoring, but you are not giving flight instruction. Supervised solo means you supervise the student and take notes on what they do. After the flight you debrief. If while on the flight you take over controls and/or begin giving flight instruction, it is no longer a supervised solo and must be counted toward your flight time.
Yes you do log this time as PIC in the student logbook. You do not log it as dual given, PIC, or total time in your logbook, which means this is not flying time.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by anthenry

You can go over 8 hours in this situation, and here is why. While on a supervised solo you are acting are monitoring, but you are not giving flight instruction. Supervised solo means you supervise the student and take notes on what they do. After the flight you debrief. If while on the flight you take over controls and/or begin giving flight instruction, it is no longer a supervised solo and must be counted toward your flight time.
Yes you do log this time as PIC in the student logbook. You do not log it as dual given, PIC, or total time in your logbook, which means this is not flying time.

I log it as PIC in my logbook, because of this from 61.51:

Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Since 61.129(b)(4) requires an authorized instructor on board and while the student is performing the duties of PIC, he cannot legally act as PIC.

[anthenry]

That's an excellent point. Glad you were able to link those seperate regulations. I appreciate the clarity.

[Houston]

Originally Posted by saria19

You can only be scheduled for 8 hours a day. If you go over, as long as it is unintentional then you should be fine. I had a coworker that that happened to, had plenty of time and then a student insisted upon flying to San Antonio. ATC vectored them every where except the airport, and they wound up going overtime.

How did the student end up in charge of the flight?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

I log it as PIC in my logbook, because of this from 61.51:

Not really necessary to go through that sort of gyration. 61.51(e)(3) makes it clear that only acting as an authorized instructor is required to log the PIC time; you don't have to actually be instructing:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
[...]
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

Since performing the duties of pilot in command requires an "authorized instructor" on board, the instructor can log the PIC time. The student cannot, however, unless he has the appropriate category and class ratings.

[tlove482]

Noone logs the time of each flight anyway so who would know what time of day you took the flight that "might" or "might not" have put you over 8 hours in 24-hour period?

[Maurus]

Originally Posted by tlove482

Noone logs the time of each flight anyway so who would know what time of day you took the flight that "might" or "might not" have put you over 8 hours in 24-hour period?

141 records and scheduling sheets.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

61.51(e)(3) makes it clear that only acting as an authorized instructor is required to log the PIC time; you don't have to actually be instructing:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
[...]
(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

Intersting interpretation. What do you, or more importantly, the Feds, think "serving as the authorized instructor" means?

[Soku39]

So I'm sitting back here laughing, wondering where on earth it's even possible to do 8 hours a day, when I'm lucky I get 3 a day. I'm sure there's dozens of people laughing with me. Keep it up guys.