Over 8 hours of flight instruction...

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Of course, I acted as safety pilot, but I did not log the time past my 8 hours in his log book as instruction. For a student pilot, this would be lost loggable time, but is the legal alternative.

How you log the time isn't relevant to whether instruction occurred. The FAA would be the one deciding that, just like they decide who was PIC on a particular flight.

[anthenry]

So to answer the posters question, would the corrective action be to make a NASA report? ALso is there something, like 121/135 that allows the instructor to go over 8hrs due to unforseen circumstances like holding, taxiing, or atc delays?

[Roger, Roger]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

How you log the time isn't relevant to whether instruction occurred. The FAA would be the one deciding that, just like they decide who was PIC on a particular flight.

That's true. I heard a story of an instructor from my old school who had timed out and was sleeping in the backseat while 2 private pilots timebuilding for commercial ran out of gas and put the airplane in a field. He got slapped with a suspension IIRC.

[Nigel Croker]

Originally Posted by ppragman

That's bad juju, you cannot, and should not do that. The reg, which is 61.195a

"In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hrs of flight training."

So the word is "any" so you can't chose when one day starts and another ends.

wouldnt you handle this minute by minute lookback to 24hrs

[shdw]

Originally Posted by ppragman

The reg, which is 61.195a

"In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hrs of flight training."

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation. The regulation says, as you pointed out "In any 24-consecutive-hour period." They make no claim on when that period should start or finish thus you make that choice. It doesn't say in one day from xx hour to xx hour. You can technically violate this regulation if you flew 7 hours from noon till 11 Saturday and then flew 2 hours before noon Sunday.

But it all depends on where you draw the line, who are they to tell you when to sleep and when to fly? For instance, maybe you woke up and started flying at 6 and flew till noon straight, combining two cross countries and flew 5 hours. You go home, sleep for 4 to 5 hours and get up, do two more flights before dark and than a night flight accumulating another 6 hours. But you slept in between, heck for some people 4 to 5 hours is all they get a night. The regulation was designed to allow situations such as this and unfortunately gives a nice legal loop hole in the process.

That said, would I do 16 hours in a day like my example, heck no. But the way the regulation reads you are within its limitation. So if you cross over the line by an hour or two, no biggie, tack it on the next day to protect yourself. The key is to make sure you can separate it so that no 24 consecutive period has more than 8 hours as the regulation requests.

[flame shields up]

PS: I think the regulation should be changed, because this is a ridiculous way to have things set up.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by shdw

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation. The regulation says, as you pointed out "In any 24-consecutive-hour period." They make no claim on when that period should start or finish thus you make that choice. It doesn't say in one day from xx hour to xx hour. You can technically violate this regulation if you flew 7 hours from noon till 11 Saturday and then flew 2 hours before noon Sunday.

But it all depends on where you draw the line, who are they to tell you when to sleep and when to fly? For instance, maybe you woke up and started flying at 6 and flew till noon straight, combining two cross countries and flew 5 hours. You go home, sleep for 4 to 5 hours and get up, do two more flights before dark and than a night flight accumulating another 6 hours. But you slept in between, heck for some people 4 to 5 hours is all they get a night. The regulation was designed to allow situations such as this and unfortunately gives a nice legal loop hole in the process.

That said, would I do 16 hours in a day like my example, heck no. But the way the regulation reads you are within its limitation. So if you cross over the line by an hour or two, no biggie, tack it on the next day to protect yourself. The key is to make sure you can separate it so that no 24 consecutive period has more than 8 hours as the regulation requests.

[flame shields up]

PS: I think the regulation should be changed, because this is a ridiculous way to have things set up.

I'm sorry, but you either misunderstood them or they are wrong. The regulation covers ANY 24 hour period, not just the specific 24 hour period that you choose.

[anthenry]

SDHDW, this is wrong. No way around that.

Edit: The 'Quote' didn't work. I didn't want it to appear in any way that I wrote what I tried to quote shdw on.

[ppragman]

[QUOTE=anthenry;1325826]

Originally Posted by shdw

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation. The regulation says, as you pointed out "In any 24-consecutive-hour period." They make no claim on when that period should start or finish thus you make that choice. It doesn't say in one day from xx hour to xx hour. You can technically violate this regulation if you flew 7 hours from noon till 11 Saturday and then flew 2 hours before noon Sunday.

But it all depends on where you draw the line, who are they to tell you when to sleep and when to fly? For instance, maybe you woke up and started flying at 6 and flew till noon straight, combining two cross countries and flew 5 hours. You go home, sleep for 4 to 5 hours and get up, do two more flights before dark and than a night flight accumulating another 6 hours. But you slept in between, heck for some people 4 to 5 hours is all they get a night. The regulation was designed to allow situations such as this and unfortunately gives a nice legal loop hole in the process.QUOTE]

This is wrong. No way around that.

Note the word is "any" consecutive 24 hr period. Just like in 135 you can't have more than "8 in 24." Bust that, and you're in deep kim chi

[KevinJH7]

Originally Posted by shdw

I'm giving the information direct from two separate aviation lawyers and various other professors discussing the situation.

I don't know which professors you had at DWC but I never heard any of them interpret the regulation like you are.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm sorry, but you either misunderstood them or they are wrong. The regulation covers ANY 24 hour period, not just the specific 24 hour period that you choose.

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical?

[shdw]

Originally Posted by KevinJH7

I don't know which professors you had at DWC but I never heard any of them interpret the regulation like you are.

Andrick, Bryant, and Joyce. I can't remember the other guys name, he wasn't my professor just one of the lawyers, his office was right next to Shirley across from the sims. (A few years ago mind you)

It was from my CFI class that I remember it clearest, that was with Bryant. It was said repeatedly and discussed through various scenarios.

[RumpleTumbler]

I'd like to work somewhere I can fly 8 hours a day 7 days a week.

7*8=56/7=8

It seems impossible to break if you don't fly over 8 hours a day. Look at the math.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by shdw

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical?

Want a shovel?

[cencal83406]

Boy you instructors and 135 guys are so strict. In 121, I have flown and logged > 8 hours in a 24 hour period. Completely legal. Ask me how.

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by shdw

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical?

Think of it like IFR currency and it should make sense. The consec. 24 hrs is rolling, like IFR currency So you lets say you fly 7 hours beginning at 10 am - 6 pm. You can only legally do another hour in flight until 6:59 am the following morning.

This following day though, you take the cumulative total of the preceding 24 hours. It cannot total more than 8 hours instruction.

[anthenry]

Originally Posted by shdw

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right? If you say no, please explain.


Do we have anyone here that can post up some 135 flying time schedules, hypothetical?

Flight instruction has no regulation on required rest, not sure if you were implying that. The way you present this it seem you are saying I could concievably fly 16 hours straight as long as I drew a line in my logbook and said that is where I decided I wanted to declare my 24 hour period ended and a new one begain. The regulation says "any 24-consecutive hour period". It does not say a 24 hour period that you may designate.

CENCAL, please explain. I have experience flying 135, 121 and flight instruction and any change to this rule would be news to me. I would love to learn how you do this. I understand you can fly over 8 hours for 135 and 121 with extra rest requirements, but I don't believe those exceptions apply to flight instructors. Please elaborate and educate me.

[cencal83406]

Originally Posted by anthenry

Flight instruction has no regulation on required rest, not sure if you were implying that. The way you present this it seem you are saying I could concievably fly 16 hours straight as long as I drew a line in my logbook and said that is where I decided I wanted to declare my 24 hour period ended and a new one begain. The regulation says "any 24-consecutive hour period". It does not say a 24 hour period that you may designate.

CENCAL, please explain. I have experience flying 135, 121 and flight instruction and any change to this rule would be news to me. I would love to learn how you do this. I understand you can fly over 8 hours for 135 and 121 with extra rest requirements, but I don't believe those exceptions apply to flight instructors. Please elaborate and educate me.

I don't know of any exceptions to flight instructors, but since you've flown 121 you probably know - "legal to start, legal to finish".... the only thing we can't exceed as a projection, is the 16 hour duty day (unless they add 91 flying after).

So, my day is scheduled at 7.5 hours, but legs 1 through three add 45 minutes to my day. So, I'm projected to exceed 8 on leg 4.... I can still do the leg because I was "at/under" 8 hours to start the day, so that's considered "legal to start, legal to finish".

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by shdw

Let me see if I am getting this than. You fly Thursday evening from let's say 5 PM till midnight and accumulate 5 hours. Than Friday, after a good 8 hours sleep, you fly 4 hours before 5 PM, now you have within the preceding 24 hours flown more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. By your definition, this is a violation, right?

What you describe exceeds 8 hours within any 24 hour period, yes.

[anthenry]

Absolutely. I agree with all that, and I would think legal to start-legal to finish would be the case for instruction as well. I can't find anything that says that though, or that gives direction on unexpected atc delays, weather, or whatever else.

[cencal83406]

Originally Posted by anthenry

Absolutely. I agree with all that, and I would think legal to start-legal to finish would be the case for instruction as well. I can't find anything that says that though, or that gives direction on unexpected atc delays, weather, or whatever else.

AFAIK, and I realize ERAU is the ultimate "play it safe" type place, there weren't any. If you had 4 students with 2 hours of flying but allowed the first three get you close to 8, the only way you could do it is to shorten the flight....

24 hour period can definitely bite you though..... If you squeezed 8 hours in a 16 hour day you'd still be working at the limit if you had 8 hours of flying the next day and did too much of it before the previous hours had "fallen off the clock", so to speak. (Speaking from 121, we consider 24 hour periods to be rolling, consecutive, etc..... Whitlow.... ugh!)

[Houston]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I'm sorry, but you either misunderstood them or they are wrong. The regulation covers ANY 24 hour period, not just the specific 24 hour period that you choose.

Listen to SteveC on this one. He is 100% correct.


However, I will also add that my hat is off to anyone who could endure more than eight hours of instruction in a twenty-four hour period.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by SteveC

What you describe exceeds 8 hours within any 24 hour period, yes.

Interesting, and no, I didn't remember it wrong, I went back through my CFI notes. What I explained the first post is what I had written in my notes. Including that notes for starting and ending points of days in your log book. Now I may have copied it down wrong a couple years back, no way to know that. But thanks for clearing it up bud, makes sense.


Jhugz: Seriously, was that called for?

OP: Sorry for confusing you bud, apparently I was wrong.

[subpilot]

Originally Posted by cencal83406

(Speaking from 121, we consider 24 hour periods to be rolling, consecutive, etc..... Whitlow.... ugh!)

I admit I don't know supplement and flag rules but for domestic the 8 hour limit is per duty period and not on a rolling 24 hour lookback.

[subpilot]

Originally Posted by shdw

Interesting, and no, I didn't remember it wrong, I went back through my CFI notes. What I explained the first post is what I had written in my notes. Including that notes for starting and ending points of days in your log book. Now I may have copied it down wrong a couple years back, no way to know that. But thanks for clearing it up bud, makes sense.

Have you considered that your instructor was confused?

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by shdw

Jhugz: Seriously, was that called for?

You are twisting this reg so badly and then dragging names of aviation lawyers in this mess to try to rectify this stupidity. Yes, I would say so.