Had a flight thru LAS Class B go bad....

[skysnake]

Here is the short version:

My student was a 45 hour pilot, who happens to be my 17 year-old son.

We took off from St. George, Utah enroute to Henderson, Nevada, which lies in Class B airspace. We got flight following from LA Center who handed us off to LAS approach. Approach immediately gave us a 60 degree left turn and proceeded to give us the ultimate run-around. We played the game with them, hoping I could get some Class B experience for my son. Nope, nada, none. In fact they never "cleared us into class bravo" but cleared us direct to the airport after a 25 minute vector. He terminated radar service, gave us a 1200 code and pointed us right at the Class B with no clearance into it. We were only 2 miles from the Class B airspace at the last hard altitude he assigned when he cut us loose. We did the high dive and with a steep turn, avoided the class B and scooted into Henderson from the South.

Since I am pretty new into this GA flight instruction, I would like to know if this is a common way of being treated in a light airplane? This was WAY more difficult than flying a CAT III approach into O'Hare in a jet! I don't know how they can expect a 100 hour private pilot to do this. Unless I am missing the big picture, this was a real setup to get a violation!

Any thoughts from you guys/gals that do this all the time?

Chris

[aloft]

If Approach has screwed up and forgotten to clear me, I always say, "Approach, confirm Bravo clearance for Cessna XXX"; with that on the tape, they'll usually respond with "Cessna xxx, cleared into Class Bravo, blah blah blah" or "Remain outside of Bravo airspace".

Also be sure to have a copy of the appropriate terminal chart, it will usually have designated flyways, and if you're not up to snuff on what has been published for VFR arrivals, you might be inviting the sort of crapstorm you got.

ATC can be forgetful, and they can also be dicks. Just be assertive and if you're not absolutely sure it's on the tape, ask for confirmation.

[anthenry]

This is pretty common flying GA into the LAS area. Unless it is late at night, you will usually get the run-around and rarely get Bravo clearance unless it is to North Vegas. If you go in late though, you can get whatever you want.

Being new to the GA instruction side and wanting to get someone Bravo experience around LAS, I would either try for the transition at night or just go into North Vegas.

[Codyjp]

I've got a similar run around but I was much quicker on the gun. As soon as I was denied a class B clearance the deal was off for me. If LAS APCH can't help me I don't want to deal with them. I canceled with them and went direct, under the B.

Each Bravo seems to have unique personality. LA is friendly but they expect you to use the pre arranged routes. San Diego is the Red Carpet Tour Team, they rock. They give out Class B clearances like candy on halloween. Nawleans was good to us, complete with a fun blues and jazz demeanor. Denver always treated me well as long as they were landing east/west. Las Vegas; foogettaboutit buddy, they are prudes and never put out a Class B clearance.

[slushie]

I am a CFI in Vegas, and I've flown skydivers/traffic watch all over the LAS class B.

-As with any busy airspace, if you sound like a dope, they're likely to keep you out. Brevity and clarity in radio communication is the key.

-Let them know what you want. In your case: "[...]Request Bravo transition to Henderson." Or make them think you're really familiar "[...]Request Numbers-Henderson" (approach end of runway 25 then heading 175-ish to Henderson.)

I got a middle of the day Strip tour yesterday with a Korean "student" that hadn't flown in years. It's not too hard as long as you have (or at least show) confidence on the radio.

If they don't let you in, shrug it off and do your own thing under the shelf (while keeping the radios with approach just in case).

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Whoa, whoa, whoa? You mean to tell me LAS TRACON did something stupid? You don't say. If there is one group of approach controllers I've had more issues with, heard more stories from, and generally have a lack of respect for, LAS is that group.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

I've got a similar run around but I was much quicker on the gun. As soon as I was denied a class B clearance the deal was off for me. If LAS APCH can't help me I don't want to deal with them. I canceled with them and went direct, under the B.

Each Bravo seems to have unique personality. LA is friendly but they expect you to use the pre arranged routes. San Diego is the Red Carpet Tour Team, they rock. They give out Class B clearances like candy on halloween. Nawleans was good to us, complete with a fun blues and jazz demeanor. Denver always treated me well as long as they were landing east/west. Las Vegas; foogettaboutit buddy, they are prudes and never put out a Class B clearance.

So freaking true. I love approach here in San Diego. The point loma off shore at 500/bay tour at 800 is about the coolest thing I've ever done, and Lindberg is very accomodating for this (plus North Island's help is awesome). Then SoCal coming into SD is amazing. Bravo clearance anywhere. Coming in from the east VFR? As soon as you're kicked over from LA Center to 124.35, "Cleared into the Bravo" without even asking.... these guys are amazing down here.

[jdlilfan]

St Louis has been off and on, I'm guessing it depends which sector and who is working. Sometimes I have gotten the run around and wont let me into bravo other times it is smooth sailing. Cincy once gave me the run around but they are usually pretty easy. Atlanta class B was a bit nuts. Memphis was super smooth and easy. Awesome controllers!

Some Class C's have been picky and vector happy. Indy sometimes is bad about being vectored all over. Ft. Myers was rough the one time I was down there.

Class C's that are awesome:
Nashville
Champaign
Lexington
Louisville
Chattanooga
South Bend
Evansville

Probably forgetting others but those are some good, easy to get what you want, facilities.

[bksslc]

I flew into North Vegas a few weeks ago on an IFR flight plan in day VFR conditions and got a Bravo clearance with no hassles. Salt Lake City is verry accomodating as well.

[Codyjp]

Originally Posted by bksslc

I flew into North Vegas a few weeks ago on an IFR flight plan in day VFR conditions and got a Bravo clearance with no hassles. Salt Lake City is verry accomodating as well.

Class B clearances on an IFR flight plan is assumed and is a given. They didn't quite rush out and do you any favors there.

[skysnake]

Originally Posted by bksslc

I flew into North Vegas a few weeks ago on an IFR flight plan in day VFR conditions and got a Bravo clearance with no hassles. Salt Lake City is verry accomodating as well.

IFR and VFR are two different deals. I fly my MD-80 into LAS all the time and am treated the same as anywhere else.

And for the record, it was my 13,000 hour voice on the radio that made the initial call to the tracon...still access denied. And yes, I had the VFR chart out. And no, I didn't sound like a "dope."

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by skysnake

And for the record, it was my 13,000 hour voice on the radio that made the initial call to the tracon...still access denied. And yes, I had the VFR chart out. And no, I didn't sound like a "dope."

Some places it doesn't matter if you sound like a pro. They will treat you like a student pilot anyway "cause all them bug smashers are idiots".

Other places will work you right in with no hassle. It really depends on the facility and the individual controller.



And don't get me started on USAF controllers and how they deal with ANY civilian airplanes near their airspace.

[bksslc]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

Class B clearances on an IFR flight plan is assumed and is a given. They didn't quite rush out and do you any favors there.

Nothing is assumed in aviation.

[Codyjp]

Originally Posted by bksslc

Nothing is assumed in aviation.

You've been given a Class B clearance while flying IFR? They might route your around it but they wont give you a specific clearance.

[bksslc]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

You've been given a Class B clearance while flying IFR? They might route your around it but they wont give you a specific clearance.

Yeah, they said cleared into class Bravo and expidite your descent.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by skysnake

And for the record, it was my 13,000 hour voice on the radio that made the initial call to the tracon...still access denied. And yes, I had the VFR chart out. And no, I didn't sound like a "dope."

I don't think slushie meant any offense, in fact there is a loooooooot of truth in what he says.
In CLT if you sounded like if you had your stuff together, cleared bravo. It's not a magic bullet but it normally does the trick.
I also noticed in CLT the old guys gave out clearances easier than the young guys.

KMCI has been good to me in the past VFR
KMSP - not so much, my one time VFR there.

[falconvalley]

Originally Posted by bksslc

Yeah, they said cleared into class Bravo and expidite your descent.

It was a mistake.

[blaise723]

I've only dealt with Houston Bravo and never had any issue. Never denied and they're pretty accomodating...even with what I would think to them are annoying practice approaches and requests. Hell, as a student pilot with my instructor they even allowed us to do a touch-and-go and IAH at night. I've even heard of them allowing practice approaches there at night.

It's unfortunate he didn't get the Bravo experience you wanted for him, but what happened to y'all was good experience as well. Now he knows how to handle being denied a clearance and what other options/routes are available. That definitely would not have been cool to happen to him for the first time while on a solo x-country. It was a brief introduction into the system and how you can't always count on getting what you had originally determined.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by skysnake

Unless I am missing the big picture, this was a real setup to get a violation! Any thoughts from you guys/gals that do this all the time?

You might consider bringing this to the attention of the FSDO and file an ASRS form. You might also call and speak to the facility manager.

[Giggity]

lol good luck on getting cleared into bravo heading to HND during the day....Only way to get cleared over Mccarren is to say you are familiar with the area and pray they are having a good day.... You will have better luck getting cleared heading towards VGT.

[KSCessnaDriver]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

And don't get me started on USAF controllers and how they deal with ANY civilian airplanes near their airspace.

I've never had big issue's with military control. I've only dealt with a few (mostly Whiteman AFB), but they are really helpful. Heck, Whiteman went ouf of their way to vector me around some thunderstorms. They (military control) seem to be much easier to deal with than anything in or around Daytona.

[mshunter]

I've noticed that the guys up at LAs are complete D-Bags. They do get busy, but nothing like So-Cal, and those guys are almost always accomidating.

I move for a vote of "no confidence" for the LAS controlers. It's not like they have a ton of airports around, like the LA Basin has to get them all stressed out.

[Pilot0486]

What if you went at a non-peak time? Very early morning or later afternoon?

[PGT]

Originally Posted by Douglas

KMSP - not so much, my one time VFR there.

MSP- IFR or VFR, if you're in a small GA and not landing in their area you will get the run around.

[ClearedToTakeoff]

Originally Posted by mshunter

I've noticed that the guys up at LAs are complete D-Bags. They do get busy, but nothing like So-Cal, and those guys are almost always accomidating.

I move for a vote of "no confidence" for the LAS controlers. It's not like they have a ton of airports around, like the LA Basin has to get them all stressed out.

So true. I wonder what the LAS controllers would do in SoCal for a night? Too much metal for them.... and there's GA to deal with too?