Spin Training Question

[aloft]

Is spin training required for your initial CFI, or specifically for the CFI-A ride? If you do CFII as your initial, do you have to have completed your spin training prior?

[shdw]

Originally Posted by aloft

Is spin training required for your initial CFI, or specifically for the CFI-A ride? If you do CFII as your initial, do you have to have completed your spin training prior?

Spin training is required for a CFI, yes. If you have your spin training from your initial CFI-A and then go for your II you don't need to repeat it. If you go straight for your II you still need the spin training, it is a requirement for initial CFI.

§ 61.183 Eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating:

(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and

(2) Demonstrate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. However, upon presentation of the endorsement specified in paragraph (i)(1) of this section an examiner may accept that endorsement as satisfactory evidence of instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures for the practical test, provided that the practical test is not a retest as a result of the applicant failing the previous test for deficiencies in the knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures. If the retest is a result of deficiencies in the ability of an applicant to demonstrate knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures, the examiner must test the person on stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery instructional procedures in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins;

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by aloft

Is spin training required for your initial CFI,

Yes, this.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by aloft

Is spin training required specifically for the CFI-A ride? If you do CFII as your initial, do you have to have completed your spin training prior?

See how the reg starts:
"§ 61.183 Eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating":..(spin endorsement follows).

That's for an AIRPLANE or GLIDER rating, or in CFI-speak, a CFI-A, or a CFI-G.

For all other CFI's such as Helicopter, or Instruments, this paragraph does not apply.

[juskl]

and for the love of all that is holy..... go somewhere that specializes in doing sping training, where you will learn how to teach it as it has to be done to instructional proficiency. A half hour in a 152 does not do it......

[shdw]

Originally Posted by juskl

and for the love of all that is holy..... go somewhere that specializes in doing sping training, where you will learn how to teach it as it has to be done to instructional proficiency. A half hour in a 152 does not do it......

IMO 3-5 hours!

[drunkenbeagle]

If I have done spin training in a glider, do I need to do it again for a CFI-A?

Would the airplane spin training I did 10 years ago still count for the flight portion now?

[esa17]

Originally Posted by drunkenbeagle

If I have done spin training in a glider, do I need to do it again for a CFI-A?

Would the airplane spin training I did 10 years ago still count for the flight portion now?

If you have an endorsement saying you've received spin training then no, you don't need to do it again per the FAR's.

Now, if you think it's a good idea to skip out on it that's a whole other ballgame. When it doubt, go spin. It's fun!

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by esa17

Now, if you think it's a good idea to skip out on it that's a whole other ballgame. When it doubt, go spin. It's fun!

Getting a taildragger endorsement soon anyway, I'll probably do some extra spin training at the same time.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by drunkenbeagle

If I have done spin training in a glider, do I need to do it again for a CFI-A?

Would the airplane spin training I did 10 years ago still count for the flight portion now?

Yes you need to do it again, look: "with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate,"

Notice if you are applying for a glider CFI you are set, if you are going for CFI-A you need to do your spins in an airplane. They are separate initial CFI certificates. Just like you can't get a tail wheel sign off in a glider to fly a tailwheel airplane.

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by shdw

They are separate initial CFI certificates.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure spin recovery is not required for a CFI-G add-on (as per the CFI-G PTS).

[shdw]

Originally Posted by drunkenbeagle

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure spin recovery is not required for a CFI-G add-on (as per the CFI-G PTS).

I don't know if it's required for glider, but I know you can't do your training in a glider for your CFI-A. Though that regulation does sound like it is necessary for a glider, that was quoted right from the regulation I posted in my first reply. Of course this is just my interpretation, I don't have an AC to back it up, but it seems straight forward.

[saria19]

Spin training is ESSENTIAL, I don't care if you've had the TARE/PARE acronym pounded into your head, you will NEED it, and not just for the CFI training sign-off.

I've already employed my training a couple of times, and believe me, you are thankful afterwards if you insure that you get proper training.

[IslandFlyer]

Originally Posted by nosehair

See how the reg starts:
"§ 61.183 Eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating":..(spin endorsement follows).

That's for an AIRPLANE or GLIDER rating, or in CFI-speak, a CFI-A, or a CFI-G.

For all other CFI's such as Helicopter, or Instruments, this paragraph does not apply.

You, sir, are correct.

If you do your CFII as your initial, you will not need the endorsement. When you add-on the CFI-A (if you choose), then you'll need it.

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by IslandFlyer

You, sir, are correct.

If you do your CFII as your initial, you will not need the endorsement. When you add-on the CFI-A (if you choose), then you'll need it.

After re-reading AC 61-65E, I'm not so sure. The endorsement doesn't specify category and class. And, for instance, it says it is okay to have the endorsement in ASEL for an initial MEI, or in gliders for and initial Sport Pilot CFI.

Seems odd to be getting exactly (word for word) the same endorsement twice.

46. Spin training: section 61.183(i)(1).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required training of section 61.183(i). I have determined that he/she is competent in instructional skills for training stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures.
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05

[anthenry]

Originally Posted by nosehair

See how the reg starts:
"§ 61.183 Eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating":..(spin endorsement follows).

That's for an AIRPLANE or GLIDER rating, or in CFI-speak, a CFI-A, or a CFI-G.

For all other CFI's such as Helicopter, or Instruments, this paragraph does not apply.

Originally Posted by IslandFlyer

You, sir, are correct.

If you do your CFII as your initial, you will not need the endorsement. When you add-on the CFI-A (if you choose), then you'll need it.

I don't agree with that. I read this as saying for "a flight instructor certificate" and a CFI, CFI-I, or MEI are all flight instructor certificates, regardless of the order completed. I don't understand how you got that interpretation. Could you explain.

[KSCessnaDriver]

I've done the spin endorsement, but I'll need to do it again I guess. At one point, I had my eye's set on a CFI-S rating, and accordingly, had the instructor sign off the endorsement for 61.405, and not both (61.183), like I should have. O well, its fun anyway

[IslandFlyer]

Originally Posted by nosehair

See how the reg starts:
"§ 61.183 Eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating":..(spin endorsement follows).

That's for an AIRPLANE or GLIDER rating, or in CFI-speak, a CFI-A, or a CFI-G.

For all other CFI's such as Helicopter, or Instruments, this paragraph does not apply.

Originally Posted by anthenry

I don't agree with that. I read this as saying for "a flight instructor certificate" and a CFI, CFI-I, or MEI are all flight instructor certificates, regardless of the order completed. I don't understand how you got that interpretation. Could you explain.

Read 61.183(i) again....."accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or glider rating"

I did my CFII as my initial without the spin endorsement, and the Houston FSDO did my checkride. Not saying the FAA is perfect, but from what I understand, it's legal.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by saria19

I've already employed my training a couple of times, and believe me, you are thankful afterwards if you insure that you get proper training.

Why? What have you been doing? Acro?

[drunkenbeagle]

Originally Posted by MikeD

Why? What have you been doing? Acro?

It is pretty easy to spin a glider accidentally too. You spend most of your time in a 45 degree bank, just above stall speed, in bumpy air.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by drunkenbeagle

It is pretty easy to spin a glider accidentally too. You spend most of your time in a 45 degree bank, just above stall speed, in bumpy air.

No I'm just curious as to what she's been doing to get that. In the current job? Or instructing?

[juskl]

An Immelspin should do it.......:-)

[jhugz]

I really don't understand why people insist in doing 3-5 hours in an Extra 300 for there CFI spin training. Yeah it is cool and fun and awesome but you don't need it nor do you need to go somewhere specialized for spin training. Be able to spin an airplane and talk through the spin in a way where you are easy to understand and the student can learn something from you. Whether that takes you .5 or 5 hours is strictly dependent on you.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by jhugz

I really don't understand why people insist in doing 3-5 hours in an Extra 300 for there CFI spin training. Yeah it is cool and fun and awesome but you don't need it nor do you need to go somewhere specialized for spin training. Be able to spin an airplane and talk through the spin in a way where you are easy to understand and the student can learn something from you. Whether that takes you .5 or 5 hours is strictly dependent on you.

It does not necessarily need to be in an Extra 300, but you should try to take some spin training from someone who actually knows about spins and can do them on a regular basis.
Also, in order to increase the salary of CFIs who teach spins it should be written into any CFI union contract that these CFIs get paid more and CFI applicants must take their spin training only from union certified spin CFIs.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

It does not necessarily need to be in an Extra 300, but you should try to take some spin training from someone who actually knows about spins and can do them on a regular basis.

Exactly. I am a firm believer in this and that my aerobatic training at DWC in their Cap 10's makes me a much safer pilot. Spins can happen in many scenarios, you will likely not just teach in that trainer you did your spins in. What if you find yourself in a Mooney doing training and what if that gets in an unintentional spin? You better think fast.

I like having that extra time spinning and think it is invaluable. It isn't exactly necessary to rush out to, what is it Arizona, and fly the Extra 300s. But getting in any aerobatic aircraft and exploring all the spins and all the possible entries certainly can benefit a CFI IMO. No person in the world can do 0.5 hours of spin training and really be ready for even half of what is possible when a spin goes wrong from the student making improper inputs.

IMO every CFI should be able to answer these and explain in detail why, if you can't you should get more spin training:

1. What spin entry is more dangerous a slipping or skidding cross controlled entry, and why?
2. While in a spin which is more dangerous turning the ailerons into the spin or out of the spin (opposite direction) and why?
3. When in a spin is it more dangerous to shove the stick forward too fast or not fast enough and why?
4. What are the dangers of a secondary spin? Is this structurally dangerous?
5. If a spin becomes inverted what do you do?
6. In what step of the spin recover phase can holding the elevator aft be helpful? Why? (Hint: It has to do with airflow over the rudder.)
7. How do you recover from a spin if it flattens? What steps can you take to avoid flat spin entry? What combination of controls is most likely to flatten your spin?

These are only the ones I could shoot out just now off the top of my head. It has been 3 or 4 years since I have had in depth spin training so I am sure there are more. Remember if your training this stuff, what if your student does something and it puts you in situations you haven't seen? That is when thorough spin training saves lives.