Filing a STAR

Douglas · October 31st, 2009, 01:26

So I am heading over to Chicago on Saturday to knock out some required x-c time with an instrument applicant.

Do you guys normally file a STAR or just file via VORs and see if they issue anything to you.

Typically we do our STAR exposer for instrument applicants on a x-c to KC and request the STAR airborne.

I'm starting to think it would be best for him to practice filing the STAR but I am curious to see what you guys do. Really not an issue at all, just curious on what you guys do.

And a second question-
He wants to go into Midway. I was wondering if any locals advise against it. (i.e. horrible ramp fees, the traffic sucks, no good food around...)
If you do advise against it, do you have a better place to go? Executive?

minitour · October 31st, 2009, 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas

So I am heading over to Chicago on Saturday to knock out some required x-c time with an instrument applicant.

Do you guys normally file a STAR or just file via VORs and see if they issue anything to you.

Typically we do our STAR exposer for instrument applicants on a x-c to KC and request the STAR airborne.

I'm starting to think it would be best for him to practice filing the STAR but I am curious to see what you guys do. Really not an issue at all, just curious on what you guys do.

I usually copy/paste whatever is in fltplan.com either a preferred route or a "recent ATC route" for a similar type. If I'm going in the Cj and a C25B has gotten ABC V123 DEF.STARR1, even though I'm not a 25B, I'll copy/past/file it.

Quote:

And a second question-
He wants to go into Midway. I was wondering if any locals advise against it. (i.e. horrible ramp fees, the traffic sucks, no good food around...)
If you do advise against it, do you have a better place to go? Executive?

DPA

IMO, Midway and PWK are both high priced (ramp fees, etc.) for students. Good experience, but it may not be worth it to him. There's certainly nothing wrong with gaining "big airport" experience, but I think the student has to decide if it's worth it particularly if there are other options.

Also, you need to decide if your student "needs" that experience. Sometimes I had to schedule students to do a bravo flight with me. Not because they are necessarily going to operate there all the time, but if they're timid wrt Class __ airspace, take them there so they can see it's no big deal.

Each student is unique.

Oh...you mentioned food, so I'll say it. MDW. Giordanos. NOM NOM NOM!!!!! It's a must!

-mini

Douglas · October 31st, 2009, 02:08

He's pretty good.
Doesn't need really anymore exposure, but he is hell bent on MDW. It looks like the fees are with in the range that he will want to do MDW.

minitour · October 31st, 2009, 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas

He's pretty good.
Doesn't need really anymore exposure, but he is hell bent on MDW. It looks like the fees are with in the range that he will want to do MDW.

Giordano's

If you don't, you surrender your man card. Emergency revocation.

MDW isn't too bad. Not a lot of ramp space. I've been to Atlantic and Signature. Atlantic's facility is probably a little nicer but I never really felt like they wanted me there in my little prop trash. Signature really treats us well, but that's because our whole fleet goes to Signature...pick your poison.

-mini

N519AT · October 31st, 2009, 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Oh...you mentioned food, so I'll say it. MDW. Giordanos. NOM NOM NOM!!!!! It's a must!

-mini

Agreed. MMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas

So I am heading over to Chicago on Saturday to knock out some required x-c time with an instrument applicant.

Do you guys normally file a STAR or just file via VORs and see if they issue anything to you.

Typically we do our STAR exposer for instrument applicants on a x-c to KC and request the STAR airborne.

I'm starting to think it would be best for him to practice filing the STAR but I am curious to see what you guys do. Really not an issue at all, just curious on what you guys do.

And a second question-
He wants to go into Midway. I was wondering if any locals advise against it. (i.e. horrible ramp fees, the traffic sucks, no good food around...)
If you do advise against it, do you have a better place to go? Executive?

I went into MDW with a C150 back in July. Filed for and was given the GSH4. I don't think we had to do anything with the crossing restriction at CGT, they descended us on their own.

If you go into PWK, just be prepared to be rerouted. More than once. It seems like no matter what "ATC preferred route" you choose on fltplan, it's never good enough for them. On the way to Oshkosh we went to PWK the night before. We got rerouted 3 different times I think.

Roger, Roger · October 31st, 2009, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Giordano's

Flyvne · October 31st, 2009, 10:54

Remember, if you can't fly the altitudes posted you can't file the STAR. You can fly to all the fixes on the STAR but you cannot actualy say you are flying the STAR. Just one of thoes stupid things I held onto for years.

jdlilfan · October 31st, 2009, 12:06

Is there a Giordano's near (walking distance?) DPA or just MDW?

woutlaw · October 31st, 2009, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas

Do you guys normally file a STAR or just file via VORs and see if they issue anything to you.

Direct. Always. If the computer wants something different, it'll issue it.

mojo6911 · October 31st, 2009, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by woutlaw

Direct. Always. If the computer wants something different, it'll issue it.

Yeah, I quit guessing the STARs and DPs a long time ago. It seemed like every time I filed one, I got something else.

Douglas · October 31st, 2009, 14:17

Guess who is not going to Chicago!

Some C182 gave a pirep for light Rime on our route so we delayed and now I cancelled due to getting back after the party started (9:30) that would be unprofessional. I wants a day off, anyway. Our flight school has been uber lucky, during the recession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woutlaw

Direct. Always. If the computer wants something different, it'll issue it.

True, but I want him to practice filing something other than direct or VORs.

And the destination has changed to executive, where he is meeting a relative. So much for Giordano's

PGT · October 31st, 2009, 14:37

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Pilot Pete's in Schaumburg.

minitour · October 31st, 2009, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by woutlaw

Direct. Always. If the computer wants something different, it'll issue it.

That works until MDW Clearance says "Sir, you can't file direct you need to re-file" after you've gotten in the plane and started the engines.

-mini

MidlifeFlyer · October 31st, 2009, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

That works until MDW Clearance says "Sir, you can't file direct you need to re-file" after you've gotten in the plane and started the engines.

-mini

Hey mini, do they actually do that?

woutlaw · October 31st, 2009, 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas

Guess who is not going to Chicago!

Some C182 gave a pirep for light Rime on our route so we delayed and now I cancelled due to getting back after the party started (9:30) that would be unprofessional. I wants a day off, anyway. Our flight school has been uber lucky, during the recession.

True, but I want him to practice filing something other than direct or VORs.

And the destination has changed to executive, where he is meeting a relative. So much for Giordano's

Yeah, I get the difficulty of "real world" vs. "training." Real world, direct, always. Or a preferred route if one exists.

Training, file what makes sense for the mission, so file the STAR, tell ATC what you're doing and they'll probably give it to you.

Dunno where you're flying in from, but picking someplace across Lake Michigan is a great exercise in decision making and filing something other than direct and probably more relevant to real-world flying than asking for a STAR.

(And saying "no thanks, I really want to go the way I filed" when offered direct by center. Good to get 'em used to telling ATC "no, that don't work for me man.")

You can get the same effect with weather, mountainous terrain (tough to come by in the Midwest, but the Appalachian mountains are dangerous enough.

Or, fly some DP/STARS in the sim so he's been exposed to 'em.

Sounds like a great training mission, actually. A real reason to go someplace with consequences if you have to cancel, divert. Outstanding stuff!

TFaudree_ERAU · October 31st, 2009, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyvne

Remember, if you can't fly the altitudes posted you can't file the STAR. You can fly to all the fixes on the STAR but you cannot actualy say you are flying the STAR. Just one of thoes stupid things I held onto for years.

I don't believe that is correct. Do you have a reference?

minitour · November 1st, 2009, 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Hey mini, do they actually do that?

Yes. Sometimes they'll put in a fix for you, if it's late and the controller isn't distracted by a hot cup of coffee and he feels like putting it in.

More often than not it's "go re-file".

-mini

Douglas · November 1st, 2009, 03:35

Brutal

clestudentpilot · November 1st, 2009, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by minitour

Yes. Sometimes they'll put in a fix for you, if it's late and the controller isn't distracted by a hot cup of coffee and he feels like putting it in.

More often than not it's "go re-file".

-mini

The routes are computer generated, a controller working flight data at MDW only reads what his strip prints out. The clearances are done within the centers. I have never been told to tell a pilot to go re-file, I'm sure it is possible it can happen, but even when a route is not liked by the computers, or a person, the computer reworks it. It has nothing to do with a controller at MDW, he doesn't decide your route.

minitour · November 1st, 2009, 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

The routes are computer generated, a controller working flight data at MDW only reads what his strip prints out.

Obviously the computer printed out "TELL HIM HE CAN'T GO DIRECT OUT OF MDW TONIGHT" then.

-mini

TFaudree_ERAU · November 2nd, 2009, 10:17

Probably because there were no routes in the computer for it to spit out (if the route isn't between two major airport). Therefore, it spits out whatever you filed. They have to adhere to SOPs and LOAs, meaning they have to route you out a specific gate and probably along a specific airway to hand off from Chicago center to wherever you're going next. Instead of pulling out a huge book and trying to figure out something that would work for another airport nearby your destination, they tell you to go refile.

I can't say that I blame them either...

minitour · November 3rd, 2009, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

I can't say that I blame them either...

I agree. With fltplan.com, filing a preferred route is as easy as copy/paste. It takes about as little effort as possible.

Direct everywhere just doesn't work. Direct some places does, just not everywhere.

-mini

October 31st, 2009, 01:26	#1
Douglas Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: The Good Life. Posts: 2,255	Filing a STAR So I am heading over to Chicago on Saturday to knock out some required x-c time with an instrument applicant. Do you guys normally file a STAR or just file via VORs and see if they issue anything to you. Typically we do our STAR exposer for instrument applicants on a x-c to KC and request the STAR airborne. I'm starting to think it would be best for him to practice filing the STAR but I am curious to see what you guys do. Really not an issue at all, just curious on what you guys do. And a second question- He wants to go into Midway. I was wondering if any locals advise against it. (i.e. horrible ramp fees, the traffic sucks, no good food around...) If you do advise against it, do you have a better place to go? Executive? __________________ EYE/ Double EYE/ Multi EYE/ GOLDEN-EYE Instructor---> Full Time Charter pilot-> Part Time Legend-----> Spare Time. Student pilot guide

October 31st, 2009, 02:08	#3
Douglas Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: The Good Life. Posts: 2,255	Re: Filing a STAR He's pretty good. Doesn't need really anymore exposure, but he is hell bent on MDW. It looks like the fees are with in the range that he will want to do MDW. __________________ EYE/ Double EYE/ Multi EYE/ GOLDEN-EYE Instructor---> Full Time Charter pilot-> Part Time Legend-----> Spare Time. Student pilot guide

October 31st, 2009, 10:54	#7
Flyvne Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: St. Louis Posts: 68	Re: Filing a STAR Remember, if you can't fly the altitudes posted you can't file the STAR. You can fly to all the fixes on the STAR but you cannot actualy say you are flying the STAR. Just one of thoes stupid things I held onto for years.

October 31st, 2009, 12:06	#8
jdlilfan Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: 5 miles away from TTH Posts: 274	Re: Filing a STAR Is there a Giordano's near (walking distance?) DPA or just MDW? __________________ Supporter of the little Lebowski Urban Achievers!

October 31st, 2009, 14:37	#12
PGT Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: IA Posts: 4,343	Re: Filing a STAR I'm surprised nobody mentioned Pilot Pete's in Schaumburg. __________________ College Student 270/20. CSEL/CMEL. CFI soon. 11/20 PUNBAT 8. "The good old days weren't all that good, and tomorrow's not as bad as it seems"

November 1st, 2009, 03:35	#18
Douglas Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: The Good Life. Posts: 2,255	Re: Filing a STAR Brutal __________________ EYE/ Double EYE/ Multi EYE/ GOLDEN-EYE Instructor---> Full Time Charter pilot-> Part Time Legend-----> Spare Time. Student pilot guide

November 2nd, 2009, 10:17	#21
TFaudree_ERAU Old Skool Join Date: May 2006 Location: Virginia is for Lovers, yacht chasing on the weekends Posts: 2,940	Re: Filing a STAR Probably because there were no routes in the computer for it to spit out (if the route isn't between two major airport). Therefore, it spits out whatever you filed. They have to adhere to SOPs and LOAs, meaning they have to route you out a specific gate and probably along a specific airway to hand off from Chicago center to wherever you're going next. Instead of pulling out a huge book and trying to figure out something that would work for another airport nearby your destination, they tell you to go refile. I can't say that I blame them either...

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