Rule of thumb for practice area frequencies

[Kalikiano]

I have flown in VA and FL and they both had different practice area frequencies. FL had 2-3 dividing up north and south and sometimes east/west.

Besides just asking the fbo or flight school is there a way to look at the chart and say hey they probably use this freq.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Kalikiano

Besides just asking the fbo or flight school is there a way to look at the chart and say hey they probably use this freq.

There is only one legitimate, generally available air-to-air frequency for private airplanes provided by the FCC and that's 122.75. If people are using anything else, it's not clear to me where they get the authority. My guess is they're using other frequencies illegally, hence they could be almost anything.

[moxiepilot]

agreed, frequencies for things are published in the AIM for things like air-to-air communication and other interesting things.

[AirmetTango]

123.5 and 123.3 are designated by FCC for "aviation instruction" as well as glider and hot air balloon use as per 4-1-11 of the AIM (Table 4-1-3).

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by AirmetTango

123.5 and 123.3 are designated by FCC for "aviation instruction" as well as glider and hot air balloon use as per 4-1-11 of the AIM (Table 4-1-3).

The guiding regulations are FCC, not FAA. Here's what they say:

§ 87.323 Frequencies.

(a) 121.500 MHz: Emergency and distress only.
(b) The frequencies 121.950, 123.300 and 123.500 MHz are available for assignment to aviation support stations used for pilot training, coordination of lighter-than-air aircraft operations, or coordination of soaring or free ballooning activities. Applicants for 121.950 MHz must coordinate their proposal with the appropriate FAA Regional Spectrum Management Office. The application must specify the FAA Region notified and the date notified. Applicants for aviation support land stations may request frequency(ies) based upon their eligibility although the Commission reserves the right to specify the frequency of assignment. Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300 and 123.500 MHz. However, aviation support mobile stations must operate only on a noninterference basis to communications between aircraft and aviation support land stations.

Doesn't sound like these frequencies are available for air-to-air chatting, although they might be available to a ground station communicating with training aircraft in the practice area.

[Kalikiano]

I cant remember the frequencies but they were random. Everyone in the area knew the frequencies it wasn't just my flight school. We used it like unicom to self announce our position in the practice area due to heavy flight training. I flew out of KDAB and KCRG and in Va KCPK

[shdw]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

available for assignment to aviation support stations used for pilot training

You missed the "used for pilot training" in the red, that is the important part. It is true it is assigned to a ground station, much like an FBO frequency. But that station is then used for anything training related. At Daniel Webster 123.3 was our frequency for the practice area air-air comms and any air-ground comms when contacting the FBO.

It doesn't specify a prohibition to air to air comms but instead comments "noninterference" as it relates to the ground stations frequency assignment. Basically the ground station can't interfere with other on airport frequency, usually tower/app/etc.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by shdw

It doesn't specify a prohibition to air to air comms but instead comments "noninterference" as it relates to the ground stations frequency assignment.

It doesn't have to prohibit it...failure to authorize is the equivalent. The "noninterference" is only applied to aviation mobile support units, which does not refer to aircraft. Nor is the frequency listed in the FCC table as an "air-to-air".

Just because you used it this way at Daniel Webster doesn't mean that you did so legally.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Just because you used it this way at Daniel Webster doesn't mean that you did so legally.

Somehow doubt you get an FCC license at a 141 school where both the FCC and FAA come through periodically to monitor and then go and use it against their code. They don't authorize air to ground either, the post you made doesn't authorize either, it only speaks of installation. So by your assumption they can't use it at all, just install it. As well as authorizing it "for training," it doesn't specify how it should be used for training one way or another.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by shdw

So by your assumption they can't use it at all, just install it.

By george, you're right! They're *all* operating illegally.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

By george, you're right! They're *all* operating illegally.

Did you see the edited in final sentence I added? Also, show me where it prohibits air to ground or where it says air to ground is the only purpose for this installation, because I am missing it.

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

There is only one legitimate, generally available air-to-air frequency for private airplanes provided by the FCC and that's 122.75. If people are using anything else, it's not clear to me where they get the authority. My guess is they're using other frequencies illegally, hence they could be almost anything.

I think it is more of a range of freqs. Look at the link. Around here in So-Cal, we use many different freqs. for different practice areas. Here's just a few.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.39799317...art=114&zoom=3

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.74176692...art=114&zoom=3

http://skyvector.com/?ll=33.48803068...art=114&zoom=3

http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.14890428...art=114&zoom=3

http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.15045534...art=114&zoom=3

http://skyvector.com/?ll=34.44083022...art=114&zoom=3

All of these practice area's use a freq. other than 122.75. It is air to air, so I think there is exceptions to the rule. But the exception has to be agreed upon by the governing bodies.

[ppragman]

This is one of those things where I think its probably in your best interest to comply with whatever local tradition is in the works, if everyone goes over to "123.45" to BS it may be in your best interest not to be a tool about it, and switch over when they say, "hey man, go numbers/fingers/air-to-air" etc.

[shdw]

Originally Posted by mshunter

Here's just a few.

Your links are screwy bud, they all show up as a zoomed shot of NYC area.


Ppragman: Just my 02, but I would be cautious using frequencies for which a school doesn't an have FCC licenses for. If you use a frequency they have a license for outside of the bounds of their license it will be their butt. Further, if they went to get the license I would assume they are more likely to know what they can and can't do with it. If you use a random frequency just because some mom and pop FBO, or ol'Bob said it was ok, it is your butt on the line.

It is funny, my area they use 123.45 all the time. But the frequency which is designated for use, 122.75 is always empty. I would venture to guess most other areas are the same, likely because it isn't taught and I find most people don't know it exists just based on the 20 or so guys in my area I asked. If your mom an pop organization, or any other without a license wants to have air-air comms for safety, I am all for it, that said I suggest 122.75.

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by shdw

Your links are screwy bud, they all show up as a zoomed shot of NYC area.

Hmm. Well, it's the beta version. Just look around on an LA area TAC chart. You'll see all kinds of freqs. listed for practice areas, and not a single one of them is 22.75

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by shdw

Your links are screwy bud, they all show up as a zoomed shot of NYC area.


Ppragman: Just my 02, but I would be cautious using frequencies for which a school doesn't an have FCC licenses for. If you use a frequency they have a license for outside of the bounds of their license it will be their butt. Further, if they went to get the license I would assume they are more likely to know what they can and can't do with it. If you use a random frequency just because some mom and pop FBO, or ol'Bob said it was ok, it is your butt on the line.

It is funny, my area they use 123.45 all the time. But the frequency which is designated for use, 122.75 is always empty. I would venture to guess most other areas are the same, likely because it isn't taught and I find most people don't know it exists just based on the 20 or so guys in my area I asked. If your mom an pop organization, or any other without a license wants to have air-air comms for safety, I am all for it, that said I suggest 122.75.

I really don't think its something that's going to be enforced, it'd be impossible just from the sheer amount of people doing it. If you we're using 123.45 and crashed into someone on 122.75, then yeah, you're probably going to be SOL, however, I don't think you're going to have a problem with it. Doesn't seem like it'd be something to get worked up over at any rate.

[Bernoulli Fan]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

The guiding regulations are FCC, not FAA.

Every time I want to do something, there's the FCC saying no.

[aloft]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

There is only one legitimate, generally available air-to-air frequency for private airplanes provided by the FCC and that's 122.75. If people are using anything else, it's not clear to me where they get the authority. My guess is they're using other frequencies illegally, hence they could be almost anything.

That's one thing I hate about UVU -- they're on their own uncharted frequencies in "their" practice areas, screw anyone else who might want to transit those areas safely.