A little trouble with landings -- From a Student

[TXTBOOK]

I just passed 18 hours today, and I'm having a little trouble with landings. I'm flying out of WHP but doing pattern work at VNY in a C172M.

I tend to always stay high throughout the approach, never even coming close to touching down on the displaced runway chevrons/arrows. I know I'm not supposed to touch down there, I just mean I'm high. I'm touching down just past the numbers, but I think my approaches are like a slamdunk type. I'm high, so I lower the nose a little, and this gets me down but I gain a little airspeed. The result is that I am actually touching down faster than I want (I think). Then, when I touch down, for some reason, the airplane rolls either right or left. Maybe this is wind, but we never had more than 6kts of a 30 degree off center wind, and for one or two of the landings, wind was calm. Almost every landing today with my instructor ended with "My Flight Controls" and me wondering what the heck made the airplane roll to the left/right just after touchdown. Obviously my instructor and I talk about it and we are working on it together, but I wondered what everyone else thought, too.

On the other hand, my instructor lands smoothly and perfectly every time (he did a couple today to show me what it should look like), and the sight picture during his landings is considerably different to me. To my very untrained eye, I'm convinced he is going to land on the displaced threshold as we cross the airport fence. Of course we never do, but I can never seem to reproduce that sight picture during my own landings. Maybe it's a comfort thing.

Granted, this is only the second or third lesson dedicated to TO/L but I'm getting frusturated. I did 5 landings today, 2 go arounds, and not one of them I am proud of. I suppose it's better that I'm high rather than low, but I'm definitely missing something.

Any ideas, tips, or otherwise words of encouragement?

Thanks for the help,

Matt

[desertdog71]

Just keep working at it and listen to your instructor, it will come.

[Douglas]

Try dragging it in low, tell your instructor you want to try it.

You won't know is right until you error on both sides of the approach path.

[TXTBOOK]

Thanks for the encouragement. Maybe I'll ask for 16R next time, and if I'm lucky, I just land long and low and try to really hold it off and land with as slow of an airspeed as possible.

[Inverted25]

Here is what works well for me that has let me win two spot landing contest. For me speed is key. To get used to this approach fly a longer downwind so that once you turn base and final you will be a nice long final. Once your on final make sure that you are at the airplanes approach speed. I like to bring it in a little slower than normal. I usually always use the short field approach speed which is 55 kts instead of 60 kts in a 152. Once your set at that speed use the throttle to keep your intending landing spot in the window. If you look like your coming in a little high use a little less throttle and let the nose drop to hold your speed. If your a little low use a little more power and raise the nose to hold your speed. I always aim maybe 50 short of my intended target to compensate for the flare. Just remember that throttle controls altitude and pitch controls airspeed in this instance and you will be golden.

[subpilot]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

Just remember that throttle controls altitude and pitch controls airspeed in this instance and you will be golden.

Here we go...

[subpilot]

Originally Posted by TXTBOOK

I'm high, so I lower the nose a little, and this gets me down but I gain a little airspeed. The result is that I am actually touching down faster than I want (I think).

First off, relax... you are only beginning and it is normal to have problems at this stage of your training.

In the above comment, you should not only lower the nose for path control but also simultaneously reduce power to prevent a buildup of airspeed.

[Inverted25]

Here we go...

Ok so it doesnt start.. to be techincally correct the only time pitch controls airspeed is when power is fixed which isnt true in this case. BUT... remembering it that way makes life easier for student pilots.. at least it did when my primary instructor told me that.

[Inverted25]

In the above comment, you should not only lower the nose for path control but also simultaneously reduce power to prevent a buildup of airspeed.

Now to be fair I did say

If you look like your coming in a little high use a little less throttle and let the nose drop to hold your speed.

so I included that fact the two are intertwined maybe I just didnt word it the best way

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

Ok so it doesnt start.. to be techincally correct the only time pitch controls airspeed is when power is fixed which isnt true in this case. BUT... remembering it that way makes life easier for student pilots.. at least it did when my primary instructor told me that.

All you need to know is: user fees.

[desertdog71]

Gonna add my 2 cents despite the onslaught of disagreeable posts to follow.

Trim for approach speed and use power to control rate of descent. Hand on the yoke to stabilize the airplane at the proper speed and path until the roundout and flare. Thats the best way I can describe it, but as I said before just keep at it and listen to your instructor.

[Inverted25]

All you need to know is: user fees.
As previously discussed I am againt user fees. They aren't the solution. But this isnt the thread from that so I'm not sure why you brought it up Mike.

[TXTBOOK]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

All you need to know is: user fees.
As previously discussed I am againt user fees. They aren't the solution. But this isnt the thread from that so I'm not sure why you brought it up Mike.

I think it was a joke.

Thanks for the advice. I look forward to my next lesson so I can improve on my ability.

Hopefully this thread will be able to continue on target as I really value what JC members say. However, it's not looking good.

[sdfcvoh]

I am going to recommend that you take a moment to chair fly the very end of your approach. Picture this....Make sure that for the last bit you shift your view to the far end of the runway (follow the center lines.) Don't stare at the nose of the airplane when you are landing. Once you are certain that you are looking toward the end of the runway, now its time to fly the airplane. Use your feet to keep "pointing" the nose toward the end of the runway, and use the ailerons to keep the airplane centered over the middle of the runway.

Many people tend to fixate on the cowl of the aircraft at the landing point. Doing so will cause you to lose track of where you really are. Maybe that is why it looked different when your CFI landed than when you did... yo may have been looking at different sight pictures since you weren't flying/fixating.


Also.... take some time to relax. Everybody has issues landing at first. You'll get it. We all were there at some point! Enjoy the fact that you are flying!

[shdw]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

Ok so it doesnt start.. to be techincally correct the only time pitch controls airspeed is when power is fixed which isnt true in this case. BUT... remembering it that way makes life easier for student pilots.. at least it did when my primary instructor told me that.

That isn't technically correct but you can go read our 40 page long discussion or whatever it was on that. Instead I will leave with this, I don't know what you crazy pilots were taught, rudder controls altitude!

[poser765]

I'll take a stab. When you make that initial throttle reduction on downwind, it sounds to me like you aren't reducing enough. Typically in a 172 when I pass the numbers i reduce the throttle down to about 1500 and then pitch for 80 knots. When you start throwing flaps out there the airplane wants to get down pretty good. Have to make sure to don't fly a pattern to wide or too tight. To wide, and you will need more power to sustain a shallower descent.

OK now for the pitch for airspeed crap that is sure to follow. OP, ALL you need to know at this point is the relationship the throttle and the elevator have in common. If you change one you WILL HAVE to change the other. If you are too low, pitch down, but also reduce power (or if you are two low reduce power, and pitch down to maintain airspeed...which ever way you were taught).

To reiterate, if you change one you have to change the other.

[amjon]

Originally Posted by TXTBOOK

I just passed 18 hours today, and I'm having a little trouble with landings. I'm flying out of WHP but doing pattern work at VNY in a C172M.

I tend to always stay high throughout the approach, never even coming close to touching down on the displaced runway chevrons/arrows. I know I'm not supposed to touch down there, I just mean I'm high. I'm touching down just past the numbers, but I think my approaches are like a slamdunk type. I'm high, so I lower the nose a little, and this gets me down but I gain a little airspeed. The result is that I am actually touching down faster than I want (I think). Then, when I touch down, for some reason, the airplane rolls either right or left. Maybe this is wind, but we never had more than 6kts of a 30 degree off center wind, and for one or two of the landings, wind was calm. Almost every landing today with my instructor ended with "My Flight Controls" and me wondering what the heck made the airplane roll to the left/right just after touchdown. Obviously my instructor and I talk about it and we are working on it together, but I wondered what everyone else thought, too.

On the other hand, my instructor lands smoothly and perfectly every time (he did a couple today to show me what it should look like), and the sight picture during his landings is considerably different to me. To my very untrained eye, I'm convinced he is going to land on the displaced threshold as we cross the airport fence. Of course we never do, but I can never seem to reproduce that sight picture during my own landings. Maybe it's a comfort thing.

Granted, this is only the second or third lesson dedicated to TO/L but I'm getting frusturated. I did 5 landings today, 2 go arounds, and not one of them I am proud of. I suppose it's better that I'm high rather than low, but I'm definitely missing something.

Any ideas, tips, or otherwise words of encouragement?

Thanks for the help,

Matt

My instructor has never taken control, but has assisted me (while I still had the controls) when I wasn't pulling back enough. I spent my last 5 (really 4 1/2 lesson- one was a 20NM cross country) on landings. What does your instructor say as you are beginning final? Is your instructor telling you how to make corrections or just letting you do what you think? Mine will tell me if I need to adjust something, so that helps.

[calcapt]

Matt, I have been flying for many years and have many thousands of hours and you know what, some of my landings still suck so relax. Although the fundamental basics should be well understood, I am a firm believer that good landings eventually come more from "feel" than "technique." Energy management is really the goal here and when I was in your position I always tried to mentally project the descent path of the airplane to the end of the runway which worked well for me. When your instructor feels it is appropriate, have him/her pull the power to idle while downwind abeam the numbers and try to put the airplane in the landing zone, on speed, without adding any power. This will provide a great learning experience and hopefully some of the concepts of energy management will be more clear.

You posting here and being willing to listen to others, clearly show you have high standards. I am confident you will become an excellent pilot and will be offering landing advice to others in the very near future.

[LatitudeDancer]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

Just remember that throttle controls altitude and pitch controls airspeed in this instance and you will be golden.

This one time, I was flying with a Navy friend who hadn't had much time in 172's and the like. We taxied onto the runway, and when ready to takeoff I threw the yoke forward and said I was pitching for airspeed. Needless to say, we gained no airspeed, didn't take off, and he didn't laugh. Pitch for airspeed sucked at that point.

I have a cardiologist friend who took 40+ hours to solo (=smart, aside from flying). At 14 hours, you've got time...

[kab32283]

Sounds like you're having a very similar problem I started out with, and I'll catch myself doing it every now and then today.

I think you're problem is that you're focusing on the wrong place on the runway. Yes, focus on a spot to aim for (ie, the numbers, touchdown markers, etc.) on the approach and fly the approach the way your instructor taught you. BUT, when you get OVER the threshold and as soon as you reduce your power, look up at the far end of the runway and keep your focus there all the way until you slow down enough to turn off the runway.

By doing this, you will land BEYOND the start of the threshold. Just keep doing what you been doing-add downward pressure if you think you're slow and add a little more back pressure if you think you're fast. Also, by focusing on the far end, you'll be better able to judge how much crosswind correction so that you'll track centerline all the way through your rollout.


RECAP-when you reduce power on short final, look up and focus on the end of the runway.

PS> You'll get it-just keep working hard!

[Toria]

Originally Posted by calcapt

Matt, I have been flying for many years and have many thousands of hours and you know what, some of my landings still suck

Matt, for any questions, please see



http://forums.jetcareers.com/general...s-landing.html

[subpilot]

Place a mark on the windshield that represents your flight path and then when you turn final just lock that mark on your aim point and then you only have to adjust power as required to keep a good glide path/descent rate until you cross the threshold. This is when you transition your focus to the end of the runway/horizon and bring that mark smoothly to the horizon (round out) while slowly reducing power to idle. After this, just continue to increase the mark above the horizon (flare) as the plane begins to settle and sink toward the runway while focusing on the far end of the runway/horizon the whole time and letting your peripheral vision judge runway vertical closure. The goal is to allow the plane to ever so slowly sink toward the runway with the use of pitch to control the descent rate. Once you land you should continue to hold back pressure in the yoke and use rudder pressure to keep the plane rolling out on centerline.
The mark helps you see pitch change and it sort of makes a poor man's HUD on the windshield. To set properly you must be in level flight and then place the mark so that it is directly on the horizon. This will give you an Attitude Indicator on your windscreen. It is common for new pilots to have the pitch changing, thus making the approach unstable, and not even being aware of this because they don't have a good way to see or measure pitch change. The only problem now is getting an instructor to show you this.

[TXTBOOK]

Thank you all so much for your suggestions. Unfortunately, my flight today got canceled because of MX, but I'm looking forward to trying all of these suggestions out and talking it over more with my CFI. I'll post back my results.

Thanks again!

[Tld]

Like everyone has said already...just relax, it will come. Eventually, all the pieces will fall into place for you. People told me the same thing when I felt desperate for tips & tricks to help me disect what I was doing wrong when learning to land, but really, you just have to keep practicing until it happens for you...and it will, just keep after it and try not to get discouraged.

However, in the technical department, if I can offer any tips, it would be a stabilized approach airspeed, and trim for it...hang in there, you will figure out what works for you.

[Inverted25]

This one time, I was flying with a Navy friend who hadn't had much time in 172's and the like. We taxied onto the runway, and when ready to takeoff I threw the yoke forward and said I was pitching for airspeed. Needless to say, we gained no airspeed, didn't take off, and he didn't laugh. Pitch for airspeed sucked at that point.

That isn't technically correct but you can go read our 40 page long discussion or whatever it was on that. Instead I will leave with this, I don't know what you crazy pilots were taught, rudder controls altitude!

The first one is funny.

I dont really want to read a 40 page discussion I will just take your word for it. The fact that pitch controls airspeed when power is fixed is a quote from the complete advanced pilot. Again I can see where it isn't technically correct but my instructor always used to say pitch for airspeed and use throttle to control your altitude. Example.. if I want to slow from 110 to 90 pitch up to slow and retard the throttle to prevent a altitude gain.. maybe that's not technically correct but that way of teaching worked well for me.. Maybe I do need to read that 40 page discussion though do you have a link?