Brick Wall

[Sidious]

So I got my ME rating about 3 weeks ago and now that I've got my CFII I want to finish up and get my MEI.

Well turns out that I can't rent the multi to get my 15 hours PIC unless I'm an MEI... Is this the norm out there? Im even an instructor for the school but thats what they say. So how am I supposed to get that PIC time? More of a rant than anything but Im wondering if this is everywhere or not

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Sidious

So how am I supposed to get that PIC time?

I found an MEI who needed the hours (who didn't?) and said I'd let him ride around with me for 15 hours if 1) he didn't charge me anything and 2) signed me off at the end for the MEI checkride.

(Our school, btw, didn't require the MEI to rent the airplane. Our school had lots of crashes, though, though, so I can't use their practice as a policy to follow in any manner.)

[nosehair]

This is everywhere. I'm surprised at tgrayson's answer, but the reason is also in his answer.

Insurance premiums make most schools or renters require an MEI as PIC, or have 50 to 100 hours multi-PIC. You can find places that rent multi's with little or no time, but they are paying a higher insurance/operating cost, ...OR..they are taking a chance and not insuring at all.

But you already have SOME multi-PIC; your checkride - that was PIC time, and you WILL need some instruction as an MEI. That right seat in a light twin is the most dangerous position in this airplane teaching business. Don't short-cut youself by trying to "Cheap Out" on it. Get the training.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by nosehair

But you already have SOME multi-PIC; your checkride - that was PIC time, and you WILL need some instruction as an MEI. That right seat in a light twin is the most dangerous position in this airplane teaching business. Don't short-cut youself by trying to "Cheap Out" on it. Get the training.

Agreed on not trying to cheap out, Im just trying to widdle down the 15 hours a little before I get an instructor.

You said the checkride counts toward PIC... Are you quoting from 61.47 in which the examiner "is not the PIC during the practical test"?

Thanks guys

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Sidious

Agreed on not trying to cheap out

While I agree on not cheaping out, you will find few experienced MEI's that really know any more than you do. Worse, they will know a lot of things that just ain't so.

You said the checkride counts toward PIC... Are you quoting from 61.47 in which the examiner "is not the PIC during the practical test"?

There really is no basis for logging the checkride as PIC. It's not listed in 61.51(e). Still, the examiner probably won't know that and would likely count it. Better ask first, though.

[mooneyguy]

I will assume you recieved a CMEL when you refer to your ME. Go back and look at 61.129 B (4)

You should already have 10 hours Multi PIC in your logbook! That leaves you with just 5, or less, yes your check ride was PIC time. The examiner is NOT PIC during the checkride!

then again, was your ME an add-on?

Regardless, yes you will need either an MEI, or an "Owner, or authorized by the insurer" pilot to ride along with you while you build the appropriate ME time! Unless you can find someone who rents to low time ME pilots (not likely).

Best case suck it up, find you a really good MEI with exp in the plane you wish to take the MEI in and go fly the thing from the right and get your experience ready for the MEI checkride!

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

You should already have 10 hours Multi PIC in your logbook!

The 10 hours performing the duties of pilot-in-command are NOT PIC time.

The examiner is NOT PIC during the checkride!

Can you document that acting as PIC is sufficient to log it as such?

[mooneyguy]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

The 10 hours performing the duties of pilot-in-command are NOT PIC time.

Can you document that acting as PIC is sufficient to log it as such?

I know the examiners are not actual FAA but they are close enough for me. I was told acting as PIC (ME) is loggable as PIC by the same examiner who gave me my CMEL.

No I cannot document anything other then 61.51, and again being told by every single DPE and FAA examiner during a check ride that I am PIC! Each one also listed my flight time in my log book as PIC time when I had them fill out my logbook after each checkride (I have always had the examiners do this).

If there is something out there that says something to the contrary I would like to see it for sure.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

If there is something out there that says something to the contrary I would like to see it for sure.

What you really need to see is something saying that it is PIC time. The regs don't tell you what any particular type of time isn't, they tell you what it is. And 61.51(e) tells you what PIC time is and doesn't include 'acting' as PIC, except when you're a safety pilot or an ATP.

In a similar way, if a private pilot allows a non-pilot to manipulate the controls of his airplane, the private pilot doesn't have any legal justification for logging the time, since he wasn't "sole manipulator".

The FAA's General Counsel could always interpret the time as PIC, but as far as I know, they haven't done so.

In any case, you don't have any basis for telling someone it is PIC time, when you can't justify it via the regulations. All you can really say is that most examiners will accept it as such, which is probably true. (But, as I said, you'd better verify before showing up for a checkride.)

[esa17]

Originally Posted by Sidious

So I got my ME rating about 3 weeks ago and now that I've got my CFII I want to finish up and get my MEI.

Well turns out that I can't rent the multi to get my 15 hours PIC...

Our insurance covers our instructors, period. My guys who need ME-PIC can rent the twin and fly it so long as they do not take anyone with them other than another instructor. The other instructor need not even be a MEI but they cannot rent the plane to take their girlfriend flying to gain PIC. If they want to solo thats fine but no "PAX". I'd check your company insurance policy closely if they will allow, if not, find a buddy with his MEI and buy him all the beer he can carry.

[mooneyguy]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

What you really need to see is something saying that it is PIC time. The regs don't tell you what any particular type of time isn't, they tell you what it is. And 61.51(e) tells you what PIC time is and doesn't include 'acting' as PIC, except when you're a safety pilot or an ATP.

In a similar way, if a private pilot allows a non-pilot to manipulate the controls of his airplane, the private pilot doesn't have any legal justification for logging the time, since he wasn't "sole manipulator".

The FAA's General Counsel could always interpret the time as PIC, but as far as I know, they haven't done so.

In any case, you don't have any basis for telling someone it is PIC time, when you can't justify it via the regulations. All you can really say is that most examiners will accept it as such, which is probably true. (But, as I said, you'd better verify before showing up for a checkride.)

Order 8710.3D 5-2 5 specifically states the examiner is NOT PIC during checkrides, so your saying the applicant is NOT pic and 8710.3D says the examiner is NOT PIC, so just who is PIC?
61.51(e)(1)(i) is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aicraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mooneyguy

so your saying the applicant is NOT pic

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that being PIC is not relevant to being able to log it as such, per 61.51(e). If you disagree, tell me which paragraph allows the student to log it.

Surely everyone who frequents this forum knows by now that there's a difference between acting as PIC and logging it? The way the regulation is written no one can log the flight as PIC during a private checkride.

Stupid? Sure. Loophole? Probably. Would anyone ever raise the issue? Doubtful. But if I were going to show up for a checkride counting on using that time, I'd verify it with the examiner first. Some examiners are pretty sharp.

[mooneyguy]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that being PIC is not relevant to being able to log it as such, per 61.51(e). If you disagree, tell me which paragraph allows the student to log it.

Surely everyone who frequents this forum knows by now that there's a difference between acting as PIC and logging it? The way the regulation is written no one can log the flight as PIC during a private checkride.

Stupid? Sure. Loophole? Probably. Would anyone ever raise the issue? Doubtful. But if I were going to show up for a checkride counting on using that time, I'd verify it with the examiner first. Some examiners are pretty sharp.

Fair enough! Thats the best I could do. for now

[mojo6911]

Some insurance companies have strict rules for ME. Talk to your boss, maybe you can work something out if you buy your own insurance or something.

[grnclvrs]

You need 15 hours PIC to get your MEI anyway. May as well do it with and instructor. The school I worked for allowed instructors to set rates among themselves. I did my MEI for $15 an hour.

FAR61.183 (j) Log at least 15 hours as pilot in command in the category and class of aircraft that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought.

[Codyjp]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

The way the regulation is written no one can log the flight as PIC during a private checkride.

The regs don't specifically say you can do much of anything at all. They do say a lot of things you can't do. Where exactly does it say you can't log it as PIC?

The applicant can and should log PIC during a checkride. It is ridiculous to think otherwise.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

The regs don't specifically say you can do much of anything at all.

Sure they do. The 61.51 regulations are all "can" regulation.

Where exactly does it say you can't log it as PIC?

Where does it say that I can't log my drive to the airport as PIC?

The applicant can and should log PIC during a checkride. It is ridiculous to think otherwise.

Great. Give me the paragraph in 61.51(e) that justifies this.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Give me the paragraph in 61.51(e) that justifies this.

This is a good one, tgray. You are correct that the applicant cannot log if he only looks at and considers 61.51(e).

However, as 61.47(c) exempts him from passenger carrying limitations, he can log it as PIC, as if he were solo, if he has the solo endorsement for the aircraft, ie. complex, HP, M.E., etc. If he is fully endorsed for the solo operation, then he is authorized to act, and log, as PIC.

Although 61.31(k) exempts the requirement for those specific endorsements for a checkride, having the endorsement would meet the requirement to log it.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by nosehair

However, as 61.47(c) exempts him from passenger carrying limitations, he can log it as PIC, as if he were solo

Except that 61.51(e)(4)(i) says that a student pilot can log PIC time when he is the "sole occupant" of the aircraft. No matter what the status of the examiner, he is still an occupant.

[grnclvrs]

The student is being evaluated as to his ability to act as PIC and may therefore log the flight as PIC.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by grnclvrs

The student is being evaluated as to his ability to act as PIC and may therefore log the flight as PIC.

And where is THIS regulation?

[grnclvrs]

61.47(b) and 61.47(c)

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by grnclvrs

61.47(b) and 61.47(c)

Those paragraphs have nothing to do with logging PIC. Logging PIC time is solely governed by 61.51(e).

[grnclvrs]

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by grnclvrs

tgrayson is right.