Biennial Question?

[centralhome]

I have gotten different answers to this question. Does any kind of checkride take care of a biennial? I have a student that got his instrument Rating last month. He was due for a Biennial this month, does that checkride count as a Biennial?
Thanks for any responses

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by centralhome

Does any kind of checkride take care of a biennial? I have a student that got his instrument Rating last month. He was due for a Biennial this month, does that checkride count as a Biennial?

Any pilot certificate or rating, of which instrument is one. Not CFI.

[centralhome]

Thank You, thats what I thought.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by centralhome

Thank You, thats what I thought.

A question: Any idea how you got different answers? The reg says

==============================
A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner...for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.
==============================

What was the reasoning of the person who said that the instrument rating checkride was not "a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner...for a pilot ... rating"?

[Codyjp]

I still don't agree that a CFI ride isn't a 'procifiency check' but that is just me and we better not go back down that road again!

[cfii2007]

I believe any checkride for a rating/license would reset the clock.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

I still don't agree that a CFI ride isn't a 'procifiency check' but that is just me and we better not go back down that road again!

Me too, I must have missed that thread...

[Codyjp]

lots of people will tell you that a CFI checkride doesn't count in lieu of a BFR. I can't seem to interpret the regs to agree with that but there are lots of people who are under that impression. Whatever.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

lots of people will tell you that a CFI checkride doesn't count in lieu of a BFR. I can't seem to interpret the regs to agree with that but there are lots of people who are under that impression. Whatever.

The first reason is that "Flight Instructor" is not a PILOT certificate or rating, and it's the proficiency checks for those that count as a flight review.

If that isn't good enough, then the FAA's Chief Counsel has explicitly stated in a letter of interpretation that a CFI ride does not count for a Flight Review, and I posted that interpretation a few months ago. Regardless, it's available on the FAA's website.

[Codyjp]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

The first reason is that "Flight Instructor" is not a PILOT certificate or rating, and it's the proficiency checks for those that count as a flight review.

If that isn't good enough, then the FAA's Chief Counsel has explicitly stated in a letter of interpretation that a CFI ride does not count for a Flight Review, and I posted that interpretation a few months ago. Regardless, it's available on the FAA's website.

I know this isn't a battle I can win here but if it isn't a pilot proficiency test then why do the flight maneuvers need to be performed PTS standards? if it isn't a proficiency test we shouldn't be required to touch the controls during the checkride.

[ProudPilot]

Guys, really simple, it's just ink.

ANY combination of flight training and ground training that conducts the student to a pic level (that means you asked a question and they answered satisfactorily) with at least a CFI acting as a CFI, can be a BFR.

So what do you need to do:

Endorse in their logbook:

_(name)__ holder of pilot certificate number ____ has satisfactorily completed the flight review required by 61.56 on _____.

Sign, Date
CFI #, Exp

The only difference between this and a training flight is whether you as a CFI believe that this pilot is ready to assume the commands of their aircraft over the next 2 years, and you had them act as PIC. I would say make this the intention to log it, but say if you got your instrument rating lately, just have the examiner also endorse you for a BFR. Yes, you can do both at the same time. You covered part 91, and whatever else you wanted the student to do.

Cody, you are correct by the way. I would not feel comfortable endorsing the student if I logged it as training, but you may make a training flight, or proficiency check into a BFR, just can't log it as training AND a BFR, because then the pilot really isn't acting as PIC.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

I know this isn't a battle I can win here

You can't win the battle with the Chief Counsel's Office.

if it isn't a pilot proficiency test

You're not seeing the important words from the regulation. They aren't "pilot proficiency test", but "for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege." The Flight Instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate. Here's the context:

passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

So whether it's a pilot proficiency check or not is irrelevant, but the fact that it's not one for a pilot certificate is key.

FWIW, pretty much everyone agrees that the CFI should count as a Flight Review.

[Codyjp]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

You can't win the battle with the Chief Counsel's Office.

You're not seeing the important words from the regulation. They aren't "pilot proficiency test", but "for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege." The Flight Instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate. Here's the context:

passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

So whether it's a pilot proficiency check or not is irrelevant, but the fact that it's not one for a pilot certificate is key.

FWIW, pretty much everyone agrees that the CFI should count as a Flight Review.

How is becoming a CERTIFICATED flight Instructor not attaining a pilot certificate? And if I must abide by the PTS standards how is it not a proficiency check?

Regardless, this is a mute point to me since my currency isn't really in question but just something that drives me up the wall!

On the last note, I think we all agree this rule is messed up to the Nth degee so lets burry this coffin eh?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

How is becoming a CERTIFICATED flight Instructor not attaining a pilot certificate?

Because it's not a pilot certificate. It's a Flight Instructor Certificate. There are three kinds of certificates issued by Part 61. Look at 14 CFR 61.5:

§ 61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.

(a) The following certificates are issued under this part to an applicant who satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the certificate sought:
(1) Pilot certificates—
(i) Student pilot.
(ii) Sport pilot.
(iii) Recreational pilot.
(iv) Private pilot.
(v) Commercial pilot.
(vi) Airline transport pilot.
(2) Flight instructor certificates.
(3) Ground instructor certificates.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by Codyjp

How is becoming a CERTIFICATED flight Instructor not attaining a pilot certificate? And if I must abide by the PTS standards how is it not a proficiency check?

Regardless, this is a mute point to me since my currency isn't really in question but just something that drives me up the wall!

On the last note, I think we all agree this rule is messed up to the Nth degee so lets burry this coffin eh?

The point is "moot", not "mute". Anyways, tgrayson is right. It is stupid, but the law is the law. A flight instructor certificate is a separate certificate than your pilot certificate. Are you a CFI? If so, then you have a pilot certificate and a separate flight instructor certificate, right? They are two different certificates.

Here is the FAA Opinion Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../2008/levy.pdf

[Codyjp]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

The point is "moot", not "mute". Anyways, tgrayson is right. It is stupid, but the law is the law. A flight instructor certificate is a separate certificate than your pilot certificate. Are you a CFI? If so, then you have a pilot certificate and a separate flight instructor certificate, right? They are two different certificates.

Here is the FAA Opinion Letter:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../2008/levy.pdf

I know it is the law, I am just preaching to the choir on this one. It should count, but it doesn't. The letter would lead me to believe that if I could successfully teach the examiner through each maneuver I should not be required to demonstrate proficiency on any maneuver required for the practical test. Again, I know this isn't the case but the FAA seems to be contradicting themselves when they regard a CFI checkride as not being a proficiency test, but as an 'evaluation of instructional ability.'

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by ProudPilot

Cody, you are correct by the way. I would not feel comfortable endorsing the student if I logged it as training, but you may make a training flight, or proficiency check into a BFR, just can't log it as training AND a BFR, because then the pilot really isn't acting as PIC.

Huh?

==============================
a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training.
==============================

I'd would not feel comfortable =not= logging it as training. I don't think it's been properly logged unless it =is= logged as training.

And what does who's acting as PIC have to do with how a FR is logged? (Answer: nothing)


Frankly, I always thought the whole "does it count" question was a big nothing. As ProudPilot said, it's just ink.

The practical and legal analysis don't match but the distinction between =pilot= certificate and privileges and =instructor= certificates and privileges is surprisingly consistent throughout the FAR - I don't think you can find one FAR where they are treated the same and many where they are not. Flight reviews? Heck, a CFI can give a flight review but doesn't need one himself unless acting as PIC.

The only problem I saw was the inconsistency with the way different FSDOs answered the question. That left open the possibility that a pilot who got his CFI in a district where they thought it =did= count could find himself in a violation situation after an incident in a district where they thought it =didn't=.

[juskl]

The most grueling, stressful and exhausting checkride and the bastards won't count it??????? you have to be freekin kidding me.....

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by juskl

The most grueling, stressful and exhausting checkride and the bastards won't count it??????? you have to be freekin kidding me.....

Mine was pretty easy...You could always just have your instructor sign it off before you take the checkride.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Mine was pretty easy...You could always just have your instructor sign it off before you take the checkride.

Nah, much more fun to bitch about it.

[sdfcvoh]

To take it further, during a CFI checkride how would you word asking the PE if they will sign your logbook as having conducted a BFR? This may sound silly - but I'm serious!

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

To take it further, during a CFI checkride how would you word asking the PE if they will sign your logbook as having conducted a BFR? This may sound silly - but I'm serious!

Not a silly question. First, be aware that he *probably* thinks the ride counts as a Flight Review, so it may signal your perceived ignorance in asking the question. If you really wanted to go there, the best way to slide into it would be show the DPE the letter of interpretation as in "Hey, did you know this?" Once that groundwork was laid, you could then ask for the endorsement without looking stupid.

Still, a FR requires 1 hour of flight instruction and DPE's aren't supposed to instruct. Not sure how he would feel about signing off on it.

Best bet, as stated, is to ask your instructor for it.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

the best way to slide into it would be show the DPE the letter of interpretation as in "Hey, did you know this?" Once that groundwork was laid, you could then ask for the endorsement without looking stupid.

Still, a FR requires 1 hour of flight instruction and DPE's aren't supposed to instruct. Not sure how he would feel about signing off on it.

Best bet, as stated, is to ask your instructor for it.

...and then show your instructor the letter since he will probably think the CFI ride counts as a FR, as most of us do.

I think there aren't too many who are aware of this, including FDSO Inspectors.

I have spent all of my CFI'ing career, well, ever since the BFR came out, assuming the CFI renewal counted IF I flew a renewal, which I did most of the time. That was before the online renewal programs, so a .7 flight renewal was the easiest. But,...who knew? Certainly not me or the local DE who was doing the renewal.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by nosehair

...and then show your instructor the letter since he will probably think the CFI ride counts as a FR, as most of us do.

I think there aren't too many who are aware of this, including FDSO Inspectors.

I'd bet it varies by location. Some CFIs, Examiners, Inspectors and FSDO offices are more interested in keeping their knowledge up to date in the Part 61 arena than others.

[sdfcvoh]

Well thought out. My CFI and I have discussed the non-BFR situation (he brought it up as a trick question about a month ago.)

I'll pass entirely since; A) I don't need it yet, and B) I don't want to even insinuate to the FAA-PE that I might be asking him to haze over a rule! Big Negatory there.

Thanks for adding to the discussion. It made me understand the DPE's position as far as giving instruction (no-no) even more.

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Not a silly question. First, be aware that he *probably* thinks the ride counts as a Flight Review, so it may signal your perceived ignorance in asking the question. If you really wanted to go there, the best way to slide into it would be show the DPE the letter of interpretation as in "Hey, did you know this?" Once that groundwork was laid, you could then ask for the endorsement without looking stupid.

Still, a FR requires 1 hour of flight instruction and DPE's aren't supposed to instruct. Not sure how he would feel about signing off on it.

Best bet, as stated, is to ask your instructor for it.