Landings !!!!

[christina3hunt]

All of my students are getting to the point where they are working on landings. I have not soloed a student yet. So this is pretty new to me. I was wondering how long do you let your students go during the round out and flair before you put input on the controls. I feel like none of my students are getting this part of the landing. I may be a little wary and bringing in controls when I think the round out should start. But, I'm just wondering at what point do I need to just let them go for it and at what point do I need to input on the controls. I've talked to other instructors and this seems to be the most difficult part of teachings landings.

But any pointers would really help!!

[jtsastre]

I was and a little bit still am in a similar situation. I was very wary to let my students land without my help when they were learning to land. Obviously at first you should be almost helping them with the controls so they can feel how a landing should feel. But it's hard to give total freedom when your whole landing sight picture is most likely different then theirs.

In my mind I'm thinking "I would start adding some elevator back pressure right now" when they're thinking something else most likely (and this makes you want to take over). I think it comes to confidence in your student. If you feel they would correct accordingly during landing, let them take over. But if they don't quite see when they should be correcting and they're not reacting immediately, add some of your own control.

Point out when you had to help them out and why you helped them. On the next time around, see if they're reacting accordingly. But I think it's important to let them try to land without your help; too much help my be hindering them from actually learning the feel of the landing.

Also, hovering over the controls might make you feel better while not actually helping them. That way you're ready in case something happens. And them know you're just hovering the controls and not helping, otherwise they might think you're always helping them.

Jtsastre

[cfii2007]

Maybe have them just float the aircraft over the runway while slowly reducing power and increasing pitch??

They can then tell when the aircraft does not want to fly anymore....which is the point where it wants to land.

Does that last statement make ANY sense???????????????????

[skylee4652002]

basically here how i teach to my student
when they doing landing
on final, tell them to find a aim point and aim to it
after the aim point disappear, tell them power to idle, fare to level flight and count for 5 sec, then continue to pitch back slowly like pitch up at slow flight , also make them count for 5sec
then the aircraft will nice at easy to land perfect, also make sure they are not flare to high
show them the flare alt, like 5 to 10 ft,
and make sure they are maintain the running centerline.
it work everytime to my student
and also tell them never pitch forward
you rather they are poweroff stall landing then prop strike
if still dont get it see what i can help

[skylee4652002]

also you need to use your mouth more then your hands
continue to tell them fix it fix it
tell them you control the airplane not the airplane control you
and sit back, let him do it
dont try to touch the control at all
ask them what is next, or make them say it step by step, it will work

[Beech driver]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

Maybe have them just float the aircraft over the runway while slowly reducing power and increasing pitch??

They can then tell when the aircraft does not want to fly anymore....which is the point where it wants to land.

Does that last statement make ANY sense???????????????????

One of my students had a perfect example of this last week. He brought the plane down into ground effect and literally remained within 5 feet of the runway. To his consternation it would not settle. Until he realized he had never brought the power out to idle. He was able to see and react to the forces without actually putting it onto the ground. From that time forward, his landings have shown tremendous improvement. As an instructor, I can talk and talk, but until something goes off in the student's head, they may not get it. Suddenly what I was saying made total sense to him.

[sdfcvoh]

I only play a CFI on TV, but I have to agree with the response that mentioned trying to talk them through it more. If they are to the point when they are approaching solo, maybe some more verbal reinforcement "Start your flare" "Hold it off" would be a great help to ingrain that moment in their minds for future use.

I still can hear my first CFI saying "Hold it off...hold it...hold it" and that was certainly running through my head when I did my first solo.

You'll have to fill us in once you send the first one up solo I hear its nerve-wracking!

[mojo6911]

You gotta let them bounce a few to teach them what they are doing wrong, its called operant conditioning. You have to push your limits as a CFI sometimes for the training to be effective.

[upup89]

Make sure they are looking down the runway during round out and flare. Cures a lot of my Private student's landing problems.

[ProudPilot]

My favorite way:

After working with the student through about 10 landings, find a nice ~4000 ft strip and come down to the landing at about +30 kts Vso with the power idle, and just float the whole way down, when you get to Vso, you're probably out of runway, so go around.

Ok, so why you ask. Well, with the power idle, the airspeed is decreasing and controls become less effective. As they try to hold it off, they can feel the nose pitching up (as they are doing unconciously before) and noting the changes in controls needed. After doing this I see my students have much better control inputs on their flares. Some students are obviously more natural than others, but everyone eventually gets it.

As far as the solo, I allow my students to solo usually between 30-60 landings, well, mostly between 30-40 (local pattern solo). I've managed to get 11 landings in 1 hour before, but that was with an advanced student. So in reality, about 10 hours or so of flight training if you spend most of it near the airport, about 20 most times since you'll be out in the practice area a bunch, but it's via the student. Some just take longer.

[Star-Bright Aviation]

I've learned something when working with students: the word flare can get you in trouble sometimes. I try to explain to them to level off and then just hold it off. The plane slows down just above the runway, then you will feel it begin to sink. Just continue to add enough back pressure to slow the descent, keep the nosewheel off to touch on the mains. If you pull back too much - you will balloon (causing too much speed to be lost- stall). If you balloon, add a little power so as not to bounce the plane.
Hold it off, hold it off, hold it off. Make sure that they are not looking straight down, but that they are looking down the runway.
It is difficult at first to let go. Talk them through it as much as possible without grabbing the controls (as long as they don't turn the plane into a lawn dart or stall 10 feet above the ground). Talk to them, because they will still here your voice, even when you're not in the plane with them.

[Nihon_Ni]

Midway through learning landings is a time where a good demo can be really useful. After he's made a few landings, take the controls and tell him to sit and evaluate you. Describe the major points to him as you are doing it. Point out the visual cues you are using as you land. Once you are on the ground, come to a full stop and change controls. Now he becomes a voice-activated auto pilot. Tell him what to do and what to look for at each step. The key to success in having him follow your commands is that you have to give him commands early enough for him to hear, process, and then do it. At this point I only touch the controls if I have to rescue a landing. The next step is to stop talking little by little and let the student make his own decisions. Once he can make a series of landings without me having to give him commands, he's ready to solo.

[moxiepilot]

The most common reason I found students' with difficulties have with landing is that they are not looking far enough forward. Their eye focus is too close to the nose of the plane, focused on the runway 20 feet ahead.

A few things: first, congradulations again on actively teaching. Now you know why 1/3 of us smoke, 1/3 of us drink and 1/3 of us are just plane crazy.

Secondly, an approach to the landing phase of training has been to start on day one with verbal coaching. If, during the first 15 maneuvers, you need to review prior to solo you train the student to react to your vocal commands, you will not need to touch the controls. The landings aren't pretty, but you're assisting them in doing it all themselves. With words like "raise the nose", "add a little power", "reduce power" and "level off (or level flight", you have all the keys to coaching them through landing.

On discovery flights I routinely allow the pilot to taxi, take off and land; if they respond to voice commands.

Finally, there comes a time as a CFI when your paradigm changes and you shut up, when appropriate; resulting in hard landings, porpoises, sideloads, and other associated phenomenon. Shutting up is hard. You see what's coming and want to help. And sometimes the biggest help is not doing a damn thing.

But ultimately, as stated, it is the light blub going off in the students head that is the ultimate part for which you are waiting. It's just a matter of time and practice on the student's end for that to occur.

Please post when you solo your first student.

[beechpilot84]

I just keep talking the student through the flare. If the don't respond to this then I just pull back a little on the controls or tap it back a few times to wake them up. I only touch the controls to get their attention briefly or to save the airplane. As stated before they need to go through rough landings, bounces and stuff like that to learn. Remember in the FOI, to learn the student must respond and react. So just try to get them to respond and react, after a few times of this they will start doing it on thier own. When I first started teaching I was on the controls too much. It takes time to learn when to recover or help the student out. The more you teach the more comfortable you will get and the further you will let the student go with the airplanne.

[ladder360]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

Maybe have them just float the aircraft over the runway while slowly reducing power and increasing pitch??

They can then tell when the aircraft does not want to fly anymore....which is the point where it wants to land.

Does that last statement make ANY sense???????????????????

Originally Posted by ProudPilot

My favorite way:

After working with the student through about 10 landings, find a nice ~4000 ft strip and come down to the landing at about +30 kts Vso with the power idle, and just float the whole way down, when you get to Vso, you're probably out of runway, so go around.

Ok, so why you ask. Well, with the power idle, the airspeed is decreasing and controls become less effective. As they try to hold it off, they can feel the nose pitching up (as they are doing unconciously before) and noting the changes in controls needed. After doing this I see my students have much better control inputs on their flares. Some students are obviously more natural than others, but everyone eventually gets it.

My normal instructor can be a little apprehensive about giving up the controls. I was having a lot of trouble with landings. 40-50 landings later, he was on vacation and I had a sub instructor. The sub used both of the techniques described above and I soloed the next day! My normal instructor is great - but these techniques really helped me get a better feel for the a/c above the runway.