FOI and FIA

Zero1Niner · May 16th, 2008, 19:53

Just want to confirm that the FOI and the FIA are separate tests. Just got done studying for the FOI, downloaded the most recent question bank from the FAA website, and the FOI and FIA questions were combined. Then I started to wonder if they are just one test??

Cessnaflyer · May 16th, 2008, 20:24

Nope they are separate tests.

cypilot77 · May 16th, 2008, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cessnaflyer

Nope they are separate tests.

since we are talking about FOI let me ask u guys something. I am currently a full time ground instructor for a college using my AGI and IGI. I am thinking to go get my CFI license too. Based on the regulations, if you are employeed as an instructor with a college or any other school, you are exempt from the FOI. Does this mean that i dont have to study the FOI for my oral part?? it seems that every one i asked had a different opinion. thanks

sdfcvoh · May 16th, 2008, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cypilot77

since we are talking about FOI let me ask u guys something. I am currently a full time ground instructor for a college using my AGI and IGI. I am thinking to go get my CFI license too. Based on the regulations, if you are employeed as an instructor with a college or any other school, you are exempt from the FOI. Does this mean that i dont have to study the FOI for my oral part?? it seems that every one i asked had a different opinion. thanks

Refer to (b) 1,2 and 3
Hope this helps!
§ 61.185 Aeronautical knowledge.

(a) A person who is applying for a flight instructor certificate must receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor on:
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, the fundamentals of instructing, including:
(i) The learning process;
(ii) Elements of effective teaching;
(iii) Student evaluation and testing;
(iv) Course development;
(v) Lesson planning; and
(vi) Classroom training techniques.
(2) The aeronautical knowledge areas for a recreational, private, and commercial pilot certificate applicable to the aircraft category for which flight instructor privileges are sought; and
(3) The aeronautical knowledge areas for the instrument rating applicable to the category for which instrument flight instructor privileges are sought.
(b) The following applicants do not need to comply with paragraph (a)(1) of this section:
(1) The holder of a flight instructor certificate or ground instructor certificate issued under this part;
(2) The holder of a current teacher's certificate issued by a State, county, city, or municipality that authorizes the person to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher; or
(3) A person employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university.

sdfcvoh · May 16th, 2008, 22:36

To take that a bit further is means that you don't need to receive and log the training. It is ultimately the DPE or FSDO's choice in regard to the checkride. See below....

This is direct from the PTS.

Examiner Responsibility
The examiner conducting the practical test is responsible for
determining that the applicant meets acceptable standards of teaching
ability, knowledge, and skill in the selected TASKs. The examiner
makes this determination by accomplishing an Objective that is
appropriate to each selected TASK, and includes an evaluation of the
applicant's:
1. ability to apply the fundamentals of instructing;
2. knowledge of, and ability to teach, the subject matter,
procedures, and maneuvers covered in the TASKs;
3. ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the
standards to the COMMERCIAL PILOT skill level while giving
effective flight instruction; and
4. ability to analyze and correct common errors related to the
procedures and maneuvers covered in the TASKs.

tgrayson · May 16th, 2008, 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdfcvoh

It is ultimately the DPE or FSDO's choice in regard to the checkride. S

Not completely. There are several tasks of the PTS in the FOI area of operation that are required.

tgrayson · May 16th, 2008, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by cypilot77

Does this mean that i dont have to study the FOI for my oral part?? it seems that every one i asked had a different opinion.

No, you're not exempt from being examined on this during the checkride. Don't take my word for it, check the Flight Instructor PTS.

As an instructor candidate, learn to use primary sources of information; that will keep you from suffering from someone else's ignorance.

sdfcvoh · May 17th, 2008, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Not completely. There are several tasks of the PTS in the FOI area of operation that are required.

You are correct..... What I was pointing to was that its one of those unofficial situations that the DPE/FSDO sees that you are a professor.... and unless the applicant is a complete moron the examiner is more than likely going to breeze over those pages.

Now, If I could only figure a way to get that way on all of the TASKS.....

Damnit, I am seriously sweating this upcoming CFI checkride.

Zero1Niner · May 17th, 2008, 00:28

Ah crap. I have been studying (self study) for days for the FOI, was all set to go take it tomorrow morning, and I just realized that I dont have the freaking logbook endorsement.

Anyone have any suggestions on the best way do deal with this?

sdfcvoh · May 17th, 2008, 00:36

You don't need a logbook endorsement for either of the CFI initial "written" tests.

Someone else might be able to confirm what happens if you fail one.... I haven't been able to discern that from the regs. But then - just pass em' first time

Zero1Niner · May 17th, 2008, 01:59

Am I reading this wrong (see below)?

PART 61—CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS
Subpart H—Flight Instructors Other than Flight Instructors With a Sport § 61.183 Eligibility requirements.

To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:
(a) Be at least 18 years of age;
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's flight instructor certificate as are necessary;
(c) Hold either a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate with:
(1) An aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; and
(2) An instrument rating, or privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought, if applying for—
(i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating;
(ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating;
(iii) A flight instructor certificate with a powered-lift rating; or
(iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating.
(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the fundamentals of instructing listed in §61.185 of this part appropriate to the required knowledge test;
(e) Pass a knowledge test on the areas listed in §61.185(a)(1) of this part, unless the applicant:
(1) Holds a flight instructor certificate or ground instructor certificate issued under this part;
(2) Holds a current teacher's certificate issued by a State, county, city, or municipality that authorizes the person to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher; or
(3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university.
(f) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in §61.185(a)(2) and (a)(3) of this part that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought;
(g) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation listed in §61.187(b) of this part, appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought;
(h) Pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought in an:
(1) Aircraft that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the aircraft rating sought; or
(2) Flight simulator or approved flight training device that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the rating sought, and used in accordance with a course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating:
(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and
(2) Demonstrate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. However, upon presentation of the endorsement specified in paragraph (i)(1) of this section an examiner may accept that endorsement as satisfactory evidence of instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures for the practical test, provided that the practical test is not a retest as a result of the applicant failing the previous test for deficiencies in the knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures. If the retest is a result of deficiencies in the ability of an applicant to demonstrate knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures, the examiner must test the person on stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery instructional procedures in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins;
(j) Log at least 15 hours as pilot in command in the category and class of aircraft that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; and
(k) Comply with the appropriate sections of this part that apply to the flight instructor rating sought.

Nihon_Ni · May 17th, 2008, 02:07

61.183 lists the requirements for the practical test, not the written test. Neither of the CFI written tests require an endorsement to take them.

Zero1Niner · May 17th, 2008, 02:15

Nice! Thanks guys! I will take it tomorrow.

cypilot77 · May 17th, 2008, 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zero1Niner

Nice! Thanks guys! I will take it tomorrow.

thank you guys for the info. My concern about FOI was the idea of studying and memorized all the theory from the Aviation instructor's handbook. Obviously i know how to teach (hopefully

) i just didnt want to waste time memorizing some things and forget them a few days later, if im not going to be tested on it.

tgrayson · May 17th, 2008, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cypilot77

thank you guys for the info. My concern about FOI was the idea of studying and memorized all the theory from the Aviation instructor's handbook. Obviously i know how to teach (hopefully

) i just didnt want to waste time memorizing some things and forget them a few days later, if im not going to be tested on it.

I don't blame you. I find it ironic that when testing your ability to teach, they rely on your ability to engage in rote memorization.

ILS37R · May 17th, 2008, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I don't blame you. I find it ironic that when testing your ability to teach, they rely on your ability to engage in rote memorization.

Not to mention that many of the concepts and theories covered by the FOI could charitably be labeled, "dated." I can't tell you how many times my MA in Education friends have openly mocked much of the FOIs.

That said, the important thing is that going through the Instructor's Handbook at least gets you thinking about teaching all the aviation knowledge you've accumulated rather than the rote regurgitation that checkrides typically demand. Of course, lesson planning and lesson test runs on hapless friends and relatives work even better...

Zero1Niner · May 17th, 2008, 15:48

Took the FOI test today and got a 96%. Kinda blows actually. I really thought I had 100% for sure.

I used an online test prep website to study (mypilottests.com), and I think they may have a few incorrect answers in their database. I say this only because I used the same site a few months back to study for my instrument written, and I actually found about 6 or so questions that had incorrect answers. I let the admin know about it, and he changed the answers immediately, but made me a bit sketchy on the reliability of the answers. Anyway, great site, amazing price (free), but caution for incorrect answers. I will see if I can figure out which 2 I got wrong and compare to the answers on the site.

May 16th, 2008, 19:53	#1
Zero1Niner Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 88	FOI and FIA Just want to confirm that the FOI and the FIA are separate tests. Just got done studying for the FOI, downloaded the most recent question bank from the FAA website, and the FOI and FIA questions were combined. Then I started to wonder if they are just one test??

May 16th, 2008, 20:24	#2
Cessnaflyer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sammamish, WA Posts: 1,437	Re: FOI and FIA Nope they are separate tests. __________________ Chris, CFI, CFII Now I could let these dream killers kill my self-esteem or use it as the steam to power my dreams That's how you treat things, stay hungry.

May 16th, 2008, 22:36	#5
sdfcvoh Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tucson Posts: 960	Re: FOI and FIA To take that a bit further is means that you don't need to receive and log the training. It is ultimately the DPE or FSDO's choice in regard to the checkride. See below.... This is direct from the PTS. Examiner Responsibility The examiner conducting the practical test is responsible for determining that the applicant meets acceptable standards of teaching ability, knowledge, and skill in the selected TASKs. The examiner makes this determination by accomplishing an Objective that is appropriate to each selected TASK, and includes an evaluation of the applicant's: 1. ability to apply the fundamentals of instructing; 2. knowledge of, and ability to teach, the subject matter, procedures, and maneuvers covered in the TASKs; 3. ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to the COMMERCIAL PILOT skill level while giving effective flight instruction; and 4. ability to analyze and correct common errors related to the procedures and maneuvers covered in the TASKs. __________________ I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.

May 17th, 2008, 00:28	#9
Zero1Niner Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 88	Re: FOI and FIA Ah crap. I have been studying (self study) for days for the FOI, was all set to go take it tomorrow morning, and I just realized that I dont have the freaking logbook endorsement. Anyone have any suggestions on the best way do deal with this?

May 17th, 2008, 00:36	#10
sdfcvoh Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tucson Posts: 960	Re: FOI and FIA You don't need a logbook endorsement for either of the CFI initial "written" tests. Someone else might be able to confirm what happens if you fail one.... I haven't been able to discern that from the regs. But then - just pass em' first time __________________ I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers.

May 17th, 2008, 01:59	#11
Zero1Niner Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 88	Re: FOI and FIA Am I reading this wrong (see below)? PART 61—CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS Subpart H—Flight Instructors Other than Flight Instructors With a Sport § 61.183 Eligibility requirements. To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must: (a) Be at least 18 years of age; (b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's flight instructor certificate as are necessary; (c) Hold either a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate with: (1) An aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; and (2) An instrument rating, or privileges on that person's pilot certificate that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought, if applying for— (i) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating; (ii) A flight instructor certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating; (iii) A flight instructor certificate with a powered-lift rating; or (iv) A flight instructor certificate with an instrument rating. (d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the fundamentals of instructing listed in §61.185 of this part appropriate to the required knowledge test; (e) Pass a knowledge test on the areas listed in §61.185(a)(1) of this part, unless the applicant: (1) Holds a flight instructor certificate or ground instructor certificate issued under this part; (2) Holds a current teacher's certificate issued by a State, county, city, or municipality that authorizes the person to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher; or (3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university. (f) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in §61.185(a)(2) and (a)(3) of this part that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; (g) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation listed in §61.187(b) of this part, appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; (h) Pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought in an: (1) Aircraft that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the aircraft rating sought; or (2) Flight simulator or approved flight training device that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the rating sought, and used in accordance with a course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter. (i) Accomplish the following for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane or a glider rating: (1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and (2) Demonstrate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. However, upon presentation of the endorsement specified in paragraph (i)(1) of this section an examiner may accept that endorsement as satisfactory evidence of instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures for the practical test, provided that the practical test is not a retest as a result of the applicant failing the previous test for deficiencies in the knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures. If the retest is a result of deficiencies in the ability of an applicant to demonstrate knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures, the examiner must test the person on stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery instructional procedures in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; (j) Log at least 15 hours as pilot in command in the category and class of aircraft that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; and (k) Comply with the appropriate sections of this part that apply to the flight instructor rating sought.

May 17th, 2008, 02:07	#12
Nihon_Ni Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Okinawa, Japan Posts: 303	Re: FOI and FIA 61.183 lists the requirements for the practical test, not the written test. Neither of the CFI written tests require an endorsement to take them. __________________ MCFI, CFII, MEI

May 17th, 2008, 02:15	#13
Zero1Niner Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 88	Re: FOI and FIA Nice! Thanks guys! I will take it tomorrow.

May 17th, 2008, 15:48	#17
Zero1Niner Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 88	Re: FOI and FIA Took the FOI test today and got a 96%. Kinda blows actually. I really thought I had 100% for sure. I used an online test prep website to study (mypilottests.com), and I think they may have a few incorrect answers in their database. I say this only because I used the same site a few months back to study for my instrument written, and I actually found about 6 or so questions that had incorrect answers. I let the admin know about it, and he changed the answers immediately, but made me a bit sketchy on the reliability of the answers. Anyway, great site, amazing price (free), but caution for incorrect answers. I will see if I can figure out which 2 I got wrong and compare to the answers on the site.

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