Frustrated Commercial Student

[jrocket66]

Just hit 45 hours dual on my commercial training and I'm still not ready for my checkride. My frustration level is at an all time high. I was hoping to complete this training in 25-30 hours. Obviously, this was a little opptimistic. Can anyone tell me how long it took for their commercial? Thanks.

[BajtheJino]

Took about 20 hours.
What problems are you having? Have you flown with another instructor? Practiced the man.'s on your own?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by jrocket66

Just hit 45 hours dual on my commercial training and I'm still not ready for my checkride. My frustration level is at an all time high. I was hoping to complete this training in 25-30 hours. Obviously, this was a little optimistic. Can anyone tell me how long it took for their commercial? Thanks.

25-30 hours is reasonable, but obviously, everyone is different. People come into the training with different levels of skill and different levels of experience. They also have different expectations of themselves, and different instructors vary in how demanding they are.

If you're discouraged because you feel it's a reflection of your piloting skills, don't go there. The important thing is the skill set you end up with, not how long it took you to get there. I put 60 hours in our Arrow before even beginning Commercial training, because I wanted to be good in the airplane.

[ILS37R]

It took me about 60 hours for my multi-commercial, but about 40 of those hours were mandatory cross-countries in my 141 program, so I may not be a good measuring stick.

So what's giving you trouble? Is it particular maneuvers or knowledge? If you're having trouble getting things to "click," you may want to try doing a couple lessons with a different CFI--they may have a technique or style of explaining that simply makes more sense to you. It might also be nice to a get a second opinion, as it were.

Keep your head down and try to avoid feeling too frustrated. At 45 hours, my guess is that you're at a learning plateau and you just need a few final things to come together and then everything will suddenly seem simple.

What aircraft are you flying, by the way?

[jrocket66]

I would like to thank everyone for their response. This website is a tremendous resource.

I fly a Cessna 172RG for my commercial training. I'm currently struggling on my short field landings. Lazy 8's and Chandelles were difficult until I finally understood the role of the rudder. I have flown with other instructors and all agree that I just need a little more polishing. I have practiced the maneuvers on my own but the majority of my time is dual. Often times, I struggle with a previously mastered maneuver or concept during a phase check review. It's just frustrating to hear the national average for the commercial is 25 hours when you are way past it. Thanks to everyone. The feedback is really helpful.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by jrocket66

It's just frustrating to hear the national average for the commercial is 25 hours when you are way past it.

Remember that the average student has only mediocre preparation for the checkride....by definition. Hopefully, you will be much better than average. Your CFI training will be that much easier.

BTW, I did my CFI training in a 172RG. No one else seemed to like that airplane, but I did. Managed to pull off the best landings ever on my checkride.

[BillH]

I was given 5 hours to do the single engine commercial maneuvers at ATP. To this day, they are my weak point. The bottom line is total hours, get them earlier or later... I bet you can do Lazy 8's better than I, and I have 300+ dual given. (Mostly Instrument and multi)

[mojo6911]

The Commercial Maneuvers are very vague and subjective, as stated in the PTS. I had 2 CFIs teach me a certain way to do them for my Commercial single, and the examiner wanted them done a different way. For my CFI ride, the examiner wanted them a different way. For my first couple of commercial students, each examiner wanted them a different way.

With all of that said, your best advice is to know exactly what the PTS requires for each manuever, and try to fly with one CFI.

How much total time do you have? You really shouldn't be having too much trouble with short field landings, they are the same in a 172 and 172RG, with the RG not having quite as much glide. Get it around 60 knots on final and around 55 right before the aiming point, and that should minimize the float.

With the Chandelles and Lazy Eights, the role of the rudder is simple: Keep it coordinated.

[future777captain]

You American guys have it easy. Only 20 hours for commercial?
Canada is 30 hours dual and 30 hours solo, not to mention another 100 hours 'build up'.

[tk727]

Hang in there, it will all come together at some point. I agree w/ Mojo. Everyone does the man's a little different. While it is a good idea to fly w/ someone else, especially if you are having difficulties, don't get too hung up if they tell you you are not doing them correctly. My CFI examiner tried to completely re-teach me the maneuvers I had successfully completed on my commercial ride a few months earlier. Keep practicing, it will all work out.

Just curious, are you having trouble w/ all the landings or just one in particular?

[mhcasey]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

With the Chandelles and Lazy Eights, the role of the rudder is simple: Keep it coordinated.

I'm not sure that's terribly useful advise unless you want your students staring at the ball inside the cockpit all day. Something to the effect of "review the turning tendencies and adverse yaw" might be more helpful. Think ahead of the airplane and you'll be fine - OK pulling the nose up with power in...probably going to need some right rudder initially. Continuing to roll to the right but now nose down...I can ease back on the right rudder. It sounds like some ground instruction might be helpful for you. Another thing that helped me was looking outside throughout the entire maneuver...I mean not even checking my instruments. When you can do that, you're set.

The Cutlass won't float if you take it across the numbers at 55. How are your power off 180's?

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by mhcasey

I'm not sure that's terribly useful advise unless you want your students staring at the ball inside the cockpit all day. Something to the effect of "review the turning tendencies and adverse yaw" might be more helpful. Think ahead of the airplane and you'll be fine - OK pulling the nose up with power in...probably going to need some right rudder initially. Continuing to roll to the right but now nose down...I can ease back on the right rudder. It sounds like some ground instruction might be helpful for you. Another thing that helped me was looking outside throughout the entire maneuver...I mean not even checking my instruments. When you can do that, you're set.

The Cutlass won't float if you take it across the numbers at 55. How are your power off 180's?

Where did I say to stare at the ball? I said keep it coordinated.

[mhcasey]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Where did I say to stare at the ball? I said keep it coordinated.

What does your average 200hr pilot do/think when you tell them that?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mhcasey

What does your average 200hr pilot do/think when you tell them that?

Ignore you completely.

[jrocket66]

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for their input/advice. I'll try to answer as many of the questions as I can.

I'm currently around 330 hours total with the last 50 working toward the Commercial. I fly on average 2 times a week. My current problem is with short field landings. I have a tendency to be high on final which causes my airspeed to be high over the threshold. I worked with another instructor last week and we really concentrated on getting the airspeed at 60 to increase the rate of descent.

Overall, my frustration is a result of my inability to fly all of the maneuvers to the PTS standards in one flight. One day, my Chandelles and Lazy 8's are adequate only to be followed by a very poor short field landing or 180 landing. The next day, short field landings are great only to be followed by a terrible Chandelle. When this occurs my instructor will use the next couple of lessons to work on the deficient maneuver. When we go back to fly all the maneuvers, I'll struggle on a different one and the whole cycle repeats itself. I've been in this pattern for the last 6 weeks.

Besides the obvious waste in money and time, I'm beginning to think my future in flying might be relegated to VFR weekend pilot. I started my Commercial training in September of 2007 with the hope of finishing by the end of the year and finishing my CFI by this spring. That's all out the window. Now I'm just hoping I can hang on to finish the Commercial.

Anyone know where I'm coming from?

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by jrocket66

My current problem is with short field landings. I have a tendency to be high on final which causes my airspeed to be high over the threshold. I worked with another instructor last week and we really concentrated on getting the airspeed at 60 to increase the rate of descent.

Was it just airspeed, or were you also descending too late? I'm curious because I have this problem sometimes, too.

[screennamie]

I know exactly where yer coming from. Started my commercial in spring 07 as well. Just finished my CSEL add on to my multi rating. Took me about 80 hours total to get my initial commercial multi. But I ended up going through 8 instructors when they got hired out. Each one wanted to do at least 10 hours of flight which was really FRUSTRATING. So I figured it would've been 10 or 20 something but now I have more multi time in my log book and less money. I needed to go on a diet anyways :/

Had the same problem because every instructor wanted to see something different or performed differently. Then I finally said screw it I'm going by pts period. I made every flight with my last instructor the practical flight portion of a checkride. Took about 1.5 every flight to do all the maneuvers at least once or twice. From short or soft field t/o, steep turns, chandelle, power on/off stalls, lazy eights, steep spiral, eights on pylons, and then short, soft field landings with a final pwr off 180. I found in that order the flight went about 1.5 ish for my CSEL.

My multi check ride was kind of a stressing but I was prepared for it. Power on and off stalls, vmc demo, short and soft fields, steep turns and then the examiner failed an engine and we went through some emergency procedures, restarted, shot an approach back in and failed my engine again after the fix, handeled that as well.

My CSEL ride was simplized because I had already done most of the oral in the multi explaining factors affecting vmc and doing a cross country and diversion. It was mostly scenarios as a cfi, and going over the pts for the maneuvers explaning why we do each and how. which I found kind of odd because I plan on taking my cfi next month.

I found that short/soft field landings as with any are all in the set up. As soon as you get abeam power needs to come out. At least 12-14 inches maybe less bleed off some airspeed to Vfe and get the first notch in. once you turn base get the second in, I had the problem of leveling off and loosing my descent rate when I turned downwind to base. Then chopping and dropping when I turned final. If your set up and ready just abeam the numbers the landing should come naturally. If you're too close and high just go around, an examiner would rather see that than a forced landing in my opinion.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by jrocket66

I'm beginning to think my future in flying might be relegated to VFR weekend pilot.

If you really want to be an airline pilot, then don't quit when you're so close. What you're doing in your commercial training bears little resemblance to what you will do professionally.

Perhaps you're too keyed up. Some of the words you use suggest you're being overly harsh with yourself such as "very poor", "deficient", "terrible". Those aren't constructive words, they're insults. Don't use them. Your ego will be far less bruised if you define your obstacles in objective terms. Short fields aren't "very poor", they're too long or too short. Once the problem is properly defined, the answer is clear. You can't solve "terrible", because that's too vague.

My observation is that "too high" is most often caused by the pilot not evaluating his altitude quickly and frequently enough once the descent is begun. Sometimes it's not until final that they actually start taking action regarding altitude and that's often too late.

As for technique itself, make sure you're very slip-proficient; that can fix altitude mistakes in a hurry. You can also extend your downwind, put in flaps earlier, and reduce power more aggressively. But all those techniques are moot if you don't continuously compare your altitude to where it should be at particular points in the pattern.

[screennamie]

^^^^^^
Well said. It's easy to be critical instead of objective when it comes to evaluating yourself, everybody has too high standards and expectations.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

My observation is that "too high" is most often caused by the pilot not evaluating his altitude quickly and frequently enough once the descent is begun. Sometimes it's not until final that they actually start taking action regarding altitude and that's often too late.

Very well put.

I suggest you "bracket" the apprach. Make yourself intentionally turn final a little too low, then, work on finding the "middle", or the groove that slides you right down to your spot without increasing airspeed.

[Codyjp]

how much time do you spend studying at home for the maneuvers? chair flying and such.

I had a student that refused to spend any time studying at home and didn't progress beyond a point of mediocrity. After throwing out lots of money he started studying more and walla, he was done in a few hours.

If you are studying frequently then I would recommend stepping up the frequency of your lessons.

[SillyPilot]

Folks I am another frustrated commerical student who is having problems doing Lazy8 and chandelles up to PTS. I had thought about discussing these problems but was little shy to ask bro jrocke66 had courage to post them.

The problem I am having with chandelle and lazy8 is as I enter the manuevers I start out right but half way before reaching the max pitch up the maneuvers start to break up airplane starts to return to to level flight airspeed not reaching the stall speed. It does not matter if I start the maneuver left or right I have noticed airplane acts diffrent when turning left or right.

I know I am doing some thing wrong here because my instructor has demonstrated this maneuver from the right seat he does it perfectly ok. I fly 172RG I start the maneuver at VA , one instructor I flew with told me to add power immediatly when you bank the airplane when doing a chandelle other instructor said no there is no need to add power and do this entire maneuver at VA. Some one have sujjested to me to switch to Piper Arrow as Pipers are more smooth to fly and I would do the maneuvers correctly in Piper aircraft.

I know it is difficult for viewers and for the pilots instructors to figure out just by reading this post that at which piont of the maneuvers I am doing
wrong . I have read the books and the topics about these commerical maneuver but still unable to do the maneuvers. I have about 25 hours in RG doing these maneuvers.

Now when doing chandelle do I have to add power abruptly pitch up and keep the full rudder in and in lazy8 when max nose down portion the airplane speed start the exceed before I reach the max pitch down.

Any feedback would be a help I am sure some one must had a student who was making such mistakes during these commerical maneuvers.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by SillyPilot

Now when doing chandelle do I have to add power abruptly pitch up and keep the full rudder in and in lazy8 when max nose down portion the airplane speed start the exceed before I reach the max pitch down.

I think you left some words out of this paragraph; I don't quite get what you're saying.

However, any sentence that contains the word "abruptly" is probably incorrect. Never, ever, do any maneuver abruptly. As a passenger, I don't want to feel any g-forces. Your job is to maneuver the airplane in such a sneaky fashion that I'm not aware that you're doing anything in particular. Make everything look easy, incredibly easy.

As for the chandelle, if you're in an airplane with a CS prop, you can leave the power at a cruise setting as you enter the maneuver. Check out Airplane Flying Handbook....it says so.

As you cross your reference line, smoothly roll into a 30 degree bank. Smoothly. Then smoothly (smoothly) start raising the nose. The nose should reach its highest point at the completion of a 90 degree turn. Keep it there! Smoothly begin your roll out. Err on the side of rolling out too slowly....it's easier to increase your rate of rollout at the very end to compensate for any judgment errors. As your airspeed continues to decay (even though your pitch attitude is the same), you will need increased back pressure to maintain the same pitch attitude. Only during this last rollout will you need close to full rudder. Hold the attitude there briefly and then lower the nose back to cruise.

By the way, do everything very, very smoothly.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

As for the chandelle, if you're in an airplane with a CS prop, you can leave the power at a cruise setting as you enter the maneuver. Check out Airplane Flying Handbook....it says so.

Yes, it does. However, in the spirit of trying not to get into an argument with any instructor or examiner, you should read the book. That is the essence of the problem. You should know exactly what the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook says about all these Commercial Maneuvers. Instructors and examiners are notorius about 'doing it their way' which is how they learned it.

The book says, "power MAY be left at cruise". May is the operative word. You are better trained to do them at climb or max power depending on the airplane. Your instructor will guide you, but you will better prepared to do them either way on a checkride.

Again, I would emphasize knowing exactly how these commercial maneuvers are described in the AFH. That is how they are measured on any checkride. Not what someone on-line says.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by jrocket66

I would like to thank everyone for their response. This website is a tremendous resource.

I fly a Cessna 172RG for my commercial training. I'm currently struggling on my short field landings. Lazy 8's and Chandelles were difficult until I finally understood the role of the rudder. I have flown with other instructors and all agree that I just need a little more polishing. I have practiced the maneuvers on my own but the majority of my time is dual. Often times, I struggle with a previously mastered maneuver or concept during a phase check review. It's just frustrating to hear the national average for the commercial is 25 hours when you are way past it. Thanks to everyone. The feedback is really helpful.

When doing a shortfield and you want to hit your point perfectly, what I usually do is pick an airspeed just above stall and fly that airspeed down to a point about 50' - 100' before my point, begin a gradual flare, and let the airspeed bleed off, increasing my pitch to hold it off. You use your power to control where you're going to hit, and your pitch for airspeed. There gets to be a point where you're holding the plane in the air solely by use of power, when you pull the power to idle at two feet off the runway, you'll sink and touch down at the minimum possible speed. Works good.

As with chandelles and lazy eights, the trick for those is the same as for any other maneuver, aviate navigate, communicate. What I mean by that is primarily be concerned with maintaining smooth consistent coordination, and flying the airplane, be concerned with the actual mechanics of the maneuver first. This is back to basics, things like "climbing left turn requires right rudder" should be on your mind first. Also, these are visual maneuvers. Do them with your head outside. Cover up all your instruments accept your airspeed and fly it until you have it golden. Same with your steep turns, slow flight stalls, do it OUTside. You'll get it, the commercial is the easiest, its all about being smooth, coordinated, and professional. Don't yank and bank. Be calm, cool, collected, and if you fly it like the confidently like a billy badass you'll do great,.