CFI Renewal scenario/question.

[invertmast]

Ok,
so my CFI expired at the end of April. I finished my online CFI renewal course(american flyers) on the 18th of april i believe. I got everything mailed out shorlty their after before i left on a business trip. Well, like i always do with important things like this when i leave the state, i put the return address to my parents house.

Anyways, on May 1st my mother called and told me she got the envelope w/ all of my renewal stuff i sent to AF (i paid for their services to go thru the renewal process at the FSDO) in the mail b/c I was 17 cents on postage. I've been stressing about this ever since she sent it back to AF. wondering if i was going to have renewal issues b/c it didn't make it to the FSDO before the end of april.

Has anyone had something similar to this happen to them or know if i'm in for a huge paperwork fiasco to get everything taken care of?

thanks

[MidlifeFlyer]

I'm not al all sure about this, but the reg talks about

==============================
A graduation certificate showing that, within the preceding 3 calendar months, the person has successfully completed an approved flight instructor refresher course consisting of ground training or flight training, or a combination of both.
==============================

So it seems to me that you must complete the course before expiration, not necessarily have the final paperwork into the FSDO by then.

But, as I said, I'm not at alll sure about this, so ask AF.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

So it seems to me that you must complete the course before expiration, not necessarily have the final paperwork into the FSDO by then.

if you wait until it has already expired its time to go up with the FAA.

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§ 61.199 Expired flight instructor certificates and ratings.

(a) Flight instructor certificates. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate may exchange that certificate for a new certificate with the same ratings by passing a practical test as prescribed in §61.183(h) of this part for one of the ratings listed on the expired flight instructor certificate.

[invertmast]

the renewal course was completed before the expiration date on the certificate. I don't have the regs to look at right off hand, so i thought i'd ask here..

So it seems since i got the course completed before the expiration i should be ok

[jettison IT]

You'll prabably have to show the FAA that the course was in fact completed before the expiration date , I don't think you'll have a problem.

[invertmast]

Originally Posted by jettison IT

You'll prabably have to show the FAA that the course was in fact completed before the expiration date , I don't think you'll have a problem.

No problem their. w/ the american flyers ACR department, all i do is fill out the 8710, include the printed and signed course completion certificate, proof of ID and they take care of all the paperwork and FSDO hassle for me..

[nosehair]

You will have to take another checkride. Period. The renewal paperwork must be presented before an Aviation Inspector, before the expiration date.

On the first of May, you expired and no inspector can write a renewal on that date without a flight.

[invertmast]

Well.. seems that NO one was correct in the answers. I just got off the phone w/ the San Diego FSDO and here is what he had to say.

After explaining the entire situation, and him knowing i completed the renewal w/ American flyers and their ACR service, he said that it was entirely up to the ACR department at AF b/c they would be the ones approving and sending me my temp. copy of my CFI cert. That being said, he also told me that IF they (American flyers) saw the return notice b/c of insufficient postage on the original envelope (in which the paperwork was sent in), that they should still consider the renewal up to date and they just had to post date the inspectors signature b/c of the delay in postage.

That being said, he suggested i contact AF immediately and explain the situation to them to give them the heads up, so they are familiar with the situation.

So i'm holding my breath and crossing my fingers that i dont have to spend the extra $$$ to get my CFI back.. as i really could care less about doing a CFI ride, i just dont want to have to deal w/ the headache of doing the ground portion all over again.

[exleardriver]

i would be surprised if you get any grief over this considering the circumstances. cfi's are desperately needed everywhere. any fsdo inspector that played hardball over this, i'd ask to speak to the head safety inspector. don't think these guys can't 'pen' what needs to be done in the case of something of this minutia. on the other hand, i've done online renewals over the years (gleim) when i was flying part 135, but always brought in my stuff to the fsdo to have it done in person rather than pay their fee. and if the fsdo says it's up to af...well, they want your return business. they'd be one of the more dull knives in the drawer in my opinion to make an issue of this, especially if the fsdo has told you they'll let them handle it.

[Nihon_Ni]

I used AF to renew my CFI recently. I think you'll find a note in the instructions that says your package has to arrive in their office before the expiration date on your certificate or it will be returned to you. Look at the detailed instructions of what to submit on your graduation certificate.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by invertmast

he said that it was entirely up to the ACR department at AF b/c they would be the ones approving and sending me my temp. copy of my CFI cert. That being said, he also told me that IF they (American flyers) saw the return notice b/c of insufficient postage on the original envelope (in which the paperwork was sent in), that they should still consider the renewal up to date and they just had to post date the inspectors signature b/c of the delay in postage.

That being said, he suggested i contact AF immediately and explain the situation to them to give them the heads up, so they are familiar with the situation.

The FSDO guy was just being nice and naive. Fact is, most of those guys are retired airline or military and know very little about this kind of GA certification minutia. He was following a path of logical conclusion, since some other govt. documentation is legalized by 'postmarked date', he was (probably) assuming the best for you. But procedure specifies 'in the office' before expiration.

You are asking a person to backdate when it is not legal - the same as being asked to backdate a flight review or something.

[invertmast]

Well.. I got word that my paper temporary arrived in the mail today. So i'm all in the clear or so it seems..

For renewal before the expiration in my case the fars say:

61.197 (A)(iii) says : A graduation certificate showing that, within the preceding 3 calendar months, the person has successfully completed an approved flight instructor refresher course consisting of ground training or flight training, or a combination of both.

it continues to say:

(b) The expiration month of a renewed flight instructor certificate shall be 24 calendar months from—
(1) The month the renewal requirements of paragraph (a) of this section are accomplished; or
(2) The month of expiration of the current flight instructor certificate provided—
(i) The renewal requirements of paragraph (a) of this section are accomplished within the 3 calendar months preceding the expiration month of the current flight instructor certificate, and
(ii) If the renewal is accomplished under paragraph (a)(2)(iii) of this section, the approved flight instructor refresher course must be completed within the 3 calendar months preceding the expiration month of the current flight instructor certificate.



then it goes into 61.199 for expired certificates, which mine was Not expired when i began and completed the renewal course, so it does not apply to me.

so IMO from reading and getting 3 other local CFI's opinions (2 of which are Chief Flight Instructors at local schools) and by the fact that i've gotten my paper temp. now. That the regs say u must have the renewal course done before the expiration date, but makes no mention that you are required to have the paperwork filed with the FAA by the expiration date.

So it seems their is yet another "grey area" / loop hole in the regs. Either way, i dont have to spend the time nor money on another checkride, so i'm happy


Now that being said, i would not suggest that people put it off getting the paperwork done. as this has stressed the hell out of me ever since i found out the original paperwork was sent back.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by invertmast

then it goes into 61.199 for expired certificates, which mine was Not expired when i began and completed the renewal course, so it does not apply to me.

Yep, it applies to you. You held an expired certificate on the first day of May because the renewal had not tken place, yet. If you had apprached a FSDO with your application returned in the mail, that would make no difference. The procedure for an expired certificate says, do a checkride, period.

Either way, i dont have to spend the time nor money on another checkride, so i'm happy

So the American Flyers ACR has the power (legally in written procedure, or by local misunderstanding or intentional neglect) to backdate your certificate.

I'm happy for you , too. Would you please follow up and tell us the issue date on your new temp?

Now that being said, i would not suggest that people put it off getting the paperwork done. as this has stressed the hell out of me ever since i found out the original paperwork was sent back.[/quote]

[invertmast]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Yep, it applies to you. You held an expired certificate on the first day of May because the renewal had not tken place, yet. If you had apprached a FSDO with your application returned in the mail, that would make no difference. The procedure for an expired certificate says, do a checkride, period.

So the American Flyers ACR has the power (legally in written procedure, or by local misunderstanding or intentional neglect) to backdate your certificate.

I'm happy for you , too. Would you please follow up and tell us the issue date on your new temp?

Now that being said, i would not suggest that people put it off getting the paperwork done. as this has stressed the hell out of me ever since i found out the original paperwork was sent back.

[/quote]

issues date on the new temp is 4/30/08. same date as the my original certificate (just 2 years later)

[exleardriver]

personally, i'm glad to see that it worked out for you. there was clearly no intention of not getting it done. i'm sure if every cfi's feet here were 'held to the fire' we could all be busted in some way for some small, non life-threatening violation. i'm sure the experience will make you more careful in two years. i'd much rather see a cfi have to take a re-certification ride for overt instructional incompetence, etc.

[Codyjp]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

personally, i'm glad to see that it worked out for you. there was clearly no intention of not getting it done. i'm sure if every cfi's feet here were 'held to the fire' we could all be busted in some way for some small, non life-threatening violation. i'm sure the experience will make you more careful in two years. i'd much rather see a cfi have to take a re-certification ride for overt instructional incompetence, etc.

yup, exactly. no reason they should burn this guy for that.

By the way, did you hear postage went up to $.42 cents this week? I buy my stamps one at a time (both times I need one in a year). I can't keep up.

I did the renewal through AF but i didn't use there renewal service. I just printed out the 8710 and the completion certificate and walked into my friendly FSDO down the street. it was wrapped up and done in about 3 minutes. no problemo. I do have the luxury (sorta) of working about 3 blocks from our friends.

One often over looked deal is you can renew up to 3 months early without penalty.