CFI advice with challenging student

[jwp_145]

I have an Indian student, and as is the case with many Indians, he cannot make the last ten feet of flight work out in his favor. He is driving the airplane into the ground, then flaring at the last minute, ballooning to all hell, and then not correlating that situation with the fact that he always ends up trying to tear the nosegear off when it happens.

Flies great otherwise.

Advice plz?

And yes, I'm making sure he's looking at the far end of the runway and not right in front of the nose.

[bLizZuE]

I have found that a lot of students tend to stop flying after bringing power to idle and starting a 'flare'. You'll notice perhaps that his control movements seem to nearly cease, and he's just letting the airplane do what it wants.

I teach landings in three seperate phases. Flying towards the aiming point, leveling off, and flaring. With technique and practice you can mesh all three, but in the beginning I tend to have more success with breaking it up.

Cover up all the instruments except airspeed and the tach.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by jwp_145

and as is the case with many Indians

Good thing that no anglo-saxons share this problem.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by jwp_145

I have an Indian student, and as is the case with many Indians, he cannot make the last ten feet of flight work out in his favor.

I've trained more than my fair share of Indian students and this is not factually correct.

[bLizZuE]

But stereo types are fun?!

[Piperflyer]

90% of my students were Indians. All were great pilots

[germb747]

Originally Posted by jwp_145

Advice plz?

And yes, I'm making sure he's looking at the far end of the runway and not right in front of the nose.

Looking at the far end of the runway may be too far. I used to tell people to look as far in front of them as they probably would if they were driving a car at about the same speed.

[Matt13C]

I am not an instructor but I think if you did some approach stalls it will help him. Go up to around 3500 feet, get in landing configuration, pick a spot to use as the threshold on the ground and an altitude to use as the runway elevation. Come down, hold it, hold it, hold it and have it stall right at the runway elevation. Then have him do the same thing on the ground.

[Lead Sled]

If you come from a remote part of the world where you grew up not driving a car you will probably have a harder time grasping the concept of controlling any kind of vehicle. And when I say "remote part of the world" that could also be a coal miner in Kentucky. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.


2¢

[ppragman]

I had to stop and think for a second how I land to answer this question. But it turns out there are two ways that I think about it. One way is where you break it into 3 phases descent, leveloff and flare, and the other way is to think of it as descent with nose up, and flare.

If he's always planting it on the nose, maybe have him come in with the nose higher on the other side of the power curve, make sure he's good at slow flight though.

The problem with the second way is that with an engine failure on short final you're hosed, however, maybe if he gets used to the pitch attitude with the nose up, he'll be more likely to flare higher.

You could also try a real gradual round out instead of a levelling off. Start forcing him to raise the nose as he crosses the fence by only having him work the ailerons and the rudders while you work the elevator to show him. He'll get it it just takes time.

[Moose17]

I hate stereotyping. By the way, I instruct a lot of midgets and am having a problem. Does anyone know what to do if the phone book keeps sliding out from under them? Can they just stand on the seat?

[esa17]

Originally Posted by Moose17

I hate stereotyping. By the way, I instruct a lot of midgets and am having a problem. Does anyone know what to do if the phone book keeps sliding out from under them? Can they just stand on the seat?

Duct Tape!


Just make sure you use older phone books though otherwise when you need to look up a number you're going midget hunting.

[bdhill1979]

I had a similar experience with a student of Scandinavian descent.

I started having him do low approaches and had him fly us down to within feet of the runway and just hold that all the way down the length of the runway then go around. It forced him to keep control at all times and not be scared of the gray/black mass underneath him. I think some students either get runway shy or just give up flying the plane when you are close to the ground.

Anyway doing this put the idea in his head that the plane was not only completely controllable until it stopped moving, but that you as the pilot actually should be controlling it until it stops moving. Not giving up and letting the plane decide where it goes.

It didn't take long for that silly Norwegian to get it figured out after doing that.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by Lead Sled

If you come from a remote part of the world where you grew up not driving a car you will probably have a harder time grasping the concept of controlling any kind of vehicle. And when I say "remote part of the world" that could also be a coal miner in Kentucky. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.


2¢

It's kinda funny you mention that. I know it's almost sad for me to admit it, but I got my CFII before I got my driver's license. No joke. I don't think it has much to do w/ never controlling a vehicle.

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

Anyway doing this put the idea in his head that the plane was not only completely controllable until it stopped moving, but that you as the pilot actually should be controlling it until it stops moving. Not giving up and letting the plane decide where it goes.

That's a good point I always like to emphasize. Some of my students tend to give up when they find controlling the airplane difficult.

[jwp_145]

Wow you guys act as if I'm saying they can't fly just because they are Indian. I have a lot of experience with Indians, an they all fly well, it's just that Stage 1 private seems to give a large portion of them problems.

So quit acting like I'm a hate monger. I like all of the Indians that I've met and most all of them turn out to be good pilots.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by jwp_145

Wow you guys act as if I'm saying they can't fly just because they are Indian. I have a lot of experience with Indians, an they all fly well, it's just that Stage 1 private seems to give a large portion of them problems.

So quit acting like I'm a hate monger. I like all of the Indians that I've met and most all of them turn out to be good pilots.

I think it was more teasing.....at least mine was.

[Superfly7XAF]

I know as a new student still working on perfecting landings, I initially (and sometimes still do) have a hard time gauging how high the landing gear is off the ground. I'll feel like I still have a few feet to go when I'm almost on the ground and slam all three gear into the ground at once. Trying to do that with X-wind controls makes it a little difficult to grasp in the beginning.

[Fly_Unity]

Originally Posted by jwp_145

I have an Indian student, and as is the case with many Indians, he cannot make the last ten feet of flight work out in his favor. He is driving the airplane into the ground, then flaring at the last minute, ballooning to all hell, and then not correlating that situation with the fact that he always ends up trying to tear the nosegear off when it happens.

Flies great otherwise.

Advice plz?

And yes, I'm making sure he's looking at the far end of the runway and not right in front of the nose.

I seemed to have the most trouble teaching that phase of the privates as well, I learned a few tricks, some worked, some didnt.

I had one short female student who couldn't judge height well, until someone mention her putting a cushion in her chair to get her higher, it worked!

I also think judging distance above ground is due to looking to far away maybe? I found that if their yawing in every direction that their looking to close, if they are not judging their flare height right, they are looking to far. Maybe even have them look out their side window for a milli sec during landing a couple times. That seemed to help me that my instructor had me do

I been having the privilege of flying with some very high time bush pilot tailwheel instructors in the last 2 months. I also learned some of the following tricks they use that I never really seen in use at flight schools I was at.
One which is the dutch roll, that needs to be perfected, and it just takes 5 min of practice in the practice area every flight, (dont overdo it because they will get sick) cause if they cant do that with natural rudder usage, they wont be able to land in x winds well, They need to be able to do this without looking inside at the ball. Demonstrate Adverse yaw (Roll OUT of a turn with rudder, and OUT of a turn without rudder. A light bulb will turn on when they see adverse yaw. It works a little better rolling out of a turn it seems)

also most of the bush pilots I been flying with dont use 30 degrees of flaps on every landing, have your student do some landings with no flaps, and touch down at around 65 knots, vs 45 knots. you have ALOT more control effectiveness which becomes easier. (teach it like a wheel landing on a tail-wheel except reversed because CG location is opposite side of mains) I was amazed when I was shown that you can even land that fast in a cessna without hitting the nose wheel first, and it makes landing in a 30 knot crosswind easier as you have way more control.

Have the student do a flare the whole way down the runway keeping power in slightly so as to not touch the runway. (just dont do this to long down the runway so you dont hit trees at the end on the on the go-around like I almost did once)

practice power off stalls except dont recover, just hold the yoke all the way back and keep the nose straight with rudder. In my opinion natural rudder usage is the most important skill in landings, and can be learned faster doing certain maneuvers rather then just the few seconds of flare per landing.

It seems like there is one trick for every student, you just gotta find what it is, and thats the fun part of instructing hehe.

Edit: oh and one more thing, I try to avoid using the word flare, I found that a student who thinks "oh its time to flare" will often do it to much which results in a balloon. and the student should not be "flaring" unless he/she is "sinking", and the flare is mostly just "holding it off" (if your practicing stall landings)

[mhcasey]

Originally Posted by ppragman

If he's always planting it on the nose, maybe have him come in with the nose higher on the other side of the power curve, make sure he's good at slow flight though.

The problem with the second way is that with an engine failure on short final you're hosed, however, maybe if he gets used to the pitch attitude with the nose up, he'll be more likely to flare higher.

Why would you be hosed? Just lower the nose to maintain best glide?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by ppragman

If he's always planting it on the nose, maybe have him come in with the nose higher on the other side of the power curve, make sure he's good at slow flight though.

That would put him at around 50 knots in a C172. Sounds like a real bad idea.

Coming in with a higher nose attitude just requires a smaller flap setting, perhaps none.

(Not that I think either is a great idea.)

[AngelFuree]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

Demonstrate Adverse yaw (Roll OUT of a turn with rudder, and OUT of a turn without rudder. A light bulb will turn on when they see adverse yaw. It works a little better rolling out of a turn it seems)

I think adverse yaw can easily be demonstrated in both ways, into and out of a turn. The reason most people don't see adverse yaw when demonstrating it is because they roll niiiice and smoooth into the turn. There's very little difference in aileron when you bank gradually.

You almost have to snap into the turn, maintaining aileron differential for the second to be able to see it in the horizon. Remember, once in a bank (depending on the degree, but for the most part) your ailerons are more or less the same, which of course won't show any sort of adverse yaw. That's why when you snap into the turn, keeping the ailerons up and down (respectively) momentarily, the nose will go to the outside, and once you have established your bank it will drop back to the inside.

If you (in general) have never tried it before, go ahead and do it next time. None of my instructors ever demonstrated adverse yaw properly to me. They all overused opposite rudder to emphasize it which is completely unnecessary in my opinion.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by jwp_145

Wow you guys act as if I'm saying they can't fly just because they are Indian. I have a lot of experience with Indians, an they all fly well, it's just that Stage 1 private seems to give a large portion of them problems.

So quit acting like I'm a hate monger. I like all of the Indians that I've met and most all of them turn out to be good pilots.

We teach primarily Indian students, and it can be a challenge.When you factor in that they are in another country with no parental supervision, they have little experience driving a car, and that a great majority of them decided to take up flying on a whim and really have no interest in doing it, it makes it very difficult and frustrating.

My advice: Don't take it personally, and just keep flying with them. Eventually, it will click.

[Doug Taylor]

I suppose I had a different experience.

They were usually my best students because they had a lot less to "unlearn" and were generally very motivated to do a good job. A lot of my students did, in fact, come to party in America, but I tried to give them the admonition that the harder they studied and the better they flew, well, that's just more time to get out there and see California and it kind of worked.

[sdfcvoh]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

That would put him at around 50 knots in a C172. Sounds like a real bad idea.

Agreed... Additionally, the last thing I think you want to do is introduce a PPL Student to a situation on final where you are dangerously approaching Critical AoA with a purposefully nose high attitude. Not to mention that the skill you would be teaching them is not the correct way, and will eventually need to be seriously unlearned.