Part 91 Private Carriage

[Sidious]

Per AC 120-12A it states that you can operate Private Carriage under part 91. My question is..... Do you need some sort of Operating Certificate to do this like in Part 135 or 121? Or just a contract spelling out the terms and conditions?

Also does anyone have a good resource for FAA cases involving Private and Common Carriage? I searched AOPA but I didnt get to far.

Thanks in advance
-Matt

[MikeOH58]

My understanding is that you CANNOT participate in private carriage under Part 91 WITHOUT an operators cert. I can't think of the FAR off the top of my head; 119 maybe? But this states what you are allowed to do under 91 without the cert; flight instruct, skyrides within 25 nm's, photo flights....

I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, if you want to provide a private carriage service; ie- holding out, you are going to need a operators cert.

[ILS37R]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, if you want to provide a private carriage service; ie- holding out, you are going to need a operators cert.

You indeed cannot "hold-out," that is, "indicate a willingness to serve all." That does not preclude limited private carriage, but the work has to come to you with no advertising of any sort involved. More than a handful of contracts could be problematic and every one must be negotiated and spelled-out individually: having an established, standard rate could be cited as evidence of holding out.

The main issue, in my opinion, is that Part 91 private carriage--with no operator's certificate involved--is a minefield. The regs, I believe, are intentionally ambiguous as the precise nature of your operation is key to determining whether you were "holding out." If you do decide to engage in such business, document everything.

[PanJet]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

My understanding is that you CANNOT participate in private carriage under Part 91 WITHOUT an operators cert. I can't think of the FAR off the top of my head; 119 maybe? But this states what you are allowed to do under 91 without the cert; flight instruct, skyrides within 25 nm's, photo flights....

I could be wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, if you want to provide a private carriage service; ie- holding out, you are going to need a operators cert.

"Private carriage" doesn't need an operating certificate.

As per 119.1(d), "This part does not govern operations conducted under part 91, subpart K (when common carriage is not involved)..."

The whole point of 119 and AC120-12A is that private carriage never requires an operating certificate (the very nature of private carriage), and common carriage does (aside from the exceptions listed in 119.1(e)).

Basically if you look at the definition of private carriage either in AC120-12A, it means that it's a commercial operation where you aren't holding out. If it's private carriage, it falls under part 91 and no operating certificate is involved.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by PanJet

"Private carriage" doesn't need an operating certificate.

As per 119.1(d), "This part does not govern operations conducted under part 91, subpart K (when common carriage is not involved)...".

Part 91, Subpart K only applies to large and turbine aircraft and fractional ownership programs (which, while not necessarily an "operating certificate", there is FAA approval of Management Specifications).

And once you get to Subpart K, you'll find 91.501(b): "Operations that may be conducted under the rules in this subpart instead of those in parts 121, 129, 135, and 137 of this chapter when common carriage is not involved, include..." followed by a list of specific activities, one or two of which involve very tightly define private carriage activities and none of which fall into the general category of a select set of customers you didn't get by holding out. You'll find that the other Parts §119.1(d) refers to also involve tight regulation.

Back to 119, take a look at 119.5 (e) and (h):

==============================
119.5(e): A person authorized to engage in noncommon or private carriage under part 125 or part 135 of this chapter, or both, shall be issued only one certificate authorizing such carriage, regardless of the kind of operation or the class or size of aircraft to be operated.
==============================

==============================
119.5(h) A person holding an Operating Certificate authorizing noncommon or private carriage operations shall not conduct any operations in common carriage.
==============================

Don't confuse the "public vs private carriage" issue with the need for an operating certificate (I used to - this stuff ain't easy). If you look at the typical Part 135 Operating Certificate, the first space after identifying the holder will describe the type of operations. For a 135 private carriage operation, it will say "Private Carriage Operations."

Take a look at http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v0...02_001_004.htm and scroll down to Figure 2 - you'll see a sample for a private carriage operating certificate.

Other than fractionals, a true Part 91 operation does not involve carriage or persons and property for hire at all, except for the specific activities excepted.

We all tend to confuse them because the differences are complicated and the lines fuzzy, but the issues surrounding these three things are all different:

• Private or Commercial Pilot: is the pilot being paid to fly?
• Private or Commercial Operator: Are people or cargo be carried for hire?
• Public or Private:Is there a holding out of availability to the general public?

AC 120-12A sure sounds like it's authorizing Part 91 private carriage, which doesn't help the confusion (Personally, I think it's outdated and needs to be replaced; take a look at the Part 91 references in it). Bottom line is that I am unaware of even one case in which the issue of private or public was raised by the FAA where the NTSB found that carriage was private.

ILS37R's comment about being a minefield is spot on.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Don't confuse the "public vs private carriage" issue with the need for an operating certificate...

I don't understand. Are you saying that this isn't the issue or that its obvious you need an operating certificate?

The reference you have with the Private Carriage Operating Certificate is great. In my mind it clears up the fact that you need one, was that the point?

Other than fractionals, a true Part 91 operation does not involve carriage or persons and property for hire at all, except for the specific activities excepted.

So you're refering to 119.1 correct?

I think Im more confused then when I ask the question. For the record though.... I finally understand your point about a Commercial Pilot Vs. a Commercial Operation

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by Sidious

I don't understand. Are you saying that this isn't the issue or that its obvious you need an operating certificate?

I'm saying that the issue of whether you need an operating certificate of some kind for an activity is a separate issue from whether the activity is public or private. Sometimes they are joined together, sometimes, not.

In your case, you asked

Do you need some sort of Operating Certificate to do this like in Part 135 or 121?

The answer I think is yes, to engage in private carriage you need some sort of operating certificate.

The reference you have with the Private Carriage Operating Certificate is great. In my mind it clears up the fact that you need one, was that the point?

Yes.

So you're refering to 119.1 correct?

Yep. An example that shows there really is such a thing is much easier to understand than trying to follow the regs all the way to where they can lead you (as you can see )

I guess the question is, how complex do you need the answer to be? It's sort of like aerodynamics - what level do you need to understand it to? Somebody gives one of these long-winded technical answers to a "what makes it fly" question and my brain shuts down. As I'm sure that one of my long-winded technical answers on a reg does to some others. In my post I was really just responding to PanJet who cited part of a reg and thought that it exempted all private carriage ops. But, if you follow it through all the way, you find that it really doesn't, just sends you somewhere else. That somewhere else may exempt private carriage, or it might not, or might except some and not others. My long answer was really just to show that.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

My long answer was really just to show that.

Thank you for the time and effort to type that, I really appreciate it. While not completly clear in my mind it is getting close.

Anyone else with useful info please chime in and thanks to the other people who put forth opinions.

[exleardriver]

i've written about this ac before. around 1998 i helped a man setup his own single-pilot part 135, complete with manual and faa checkride and his own inspector who was charged with keeping track of his operation/certificate at the local fsdo. after a few years, he allowed his certificate to lapse - no longer a part 135 holding out to the public, yet he continued to be compensated by a few individuals only for private carriage. the local fsdo was completely aware of his activities. i would advise before doing so, that you or whomever contact your local fsdo and outline what is proposed, referencing ac 120-12a. i agree with the others about the 'shades of gray' associated, and that's why it's best to talk in advance with your local fsdo. full disclosure. in this case, better to ask first than to just do, and apologize later..