When to recover from a stall?

[FlynRyan]

The Private PTS says applicant "...recovers promptly after a stall occurs...
The Commercial PTS says "recovers promptly as the stall occurs"

How do you guys interpret this? My understanding is that private pilot students have to recover after a full stall and commercial pilots recover right before the stall(heavy buffet/stall horn). However I have been told by others that it reads both private an commercial have to fully stall and that it is just worded differently. What are your thoughts?

Ryan

[surreal1221]

As the stall occurs - to me - means prior to the full stall.

Nevertheless, I requested all of my private students to take the airplane to the full stall, and recover after the break. With my commercial students, I had them continue the demonstration to the stall, and get a break. Occasionally I'd ask them to fly through the buffet and recover, and then occassionally I'd ask them to recover at the first indication of the stall.

[dc3flyer]

I always taught stalls by taking them to a full stall and recovering after the break. Usually a few flights before the checkride, I would have my students recover at the buffet a few times, to get a feel for it.

I found that most DPE's do not want the applicant to take them to a full stall. Some do, but most just want to see the ability to recognize a stall and the use the proper techniques to recover.

[Clocks]

I was taught:

PPL - full stall
Commercial - buffet
CFI - full stall
ATP - buffet

[Chewie von Nubbins]

I think it all depends on the DPE you are using. DPE for my commercial multi-engine checkride made me stall the Seminole to the FULL break in a 15 degree bank, then killed my engine in slow flight. That is, after I already had a PMEL and about 60 hours PIC in a twin. He has a few loose screws and stutters a lot on certain words that he likes to use.

I say, know how to stall and recover from any possibilities that will be thrown at you. After you get your DPE lined up, really practice the stalls to the way the he/she will want them done....and your CFI will pretty much have a good idea of how he/she will want them performed. But, do them in all possibilities that you could get hit with - in a bank to the left, right, buffet, break, etc. Don't do them for the checkride alone, do them because it is all part of making you a better pilot.

[Maurus]

Teach both ways as the DPE ends up making the call on this one. I had my DPE have me do a 20 degree right turn and do a power-on full stall on my commercial SEL ride. Almost had a spin on my hands, but full opposite rudder kept that from happening.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by Maurus

Teach both ways as the DPE ends up making the call on this one. I had my DPE have me do a 20 degree right turn and do a power-on full stall on my commercial SEL ride. Almost had a spin on my hands, but full opposite rudder kept that from happening.

Which way were you turning? It doesn't sound like cross controlling the airplane in a stall is a good way to prevent a spin.

[LoadMasterC141]

Opposite rudder to recover from a stall is incorrect?

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Opposite the direction of rotation yes... not as in cross controlled. Ailerons should be neutral.


Don't teach to pass a check ride, teach so there is full understanding of the maneuver. Your student should be able to handle anything the DE tosses their way, full stall, to the buffet, incipient spin, and should be able to tell the DPE how to recover from an elevator stall (that one is damn hard to demonstrate ) Guess I am saying, teach all the maneuvers so the student is proficient, and then don't worry about it. The DE should brief that before the check ride.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by TUCKnTRUCK

...and should be able to tell the DPE how to recover from an elevator stall (that one is damn hard to demonstrate )

Is that the same as a trim-tab stall? I've not heard 'elevator stall' in a demonstrable context.

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Any flying surface on air airplane can stall, elevator stalls usually result from a disruptive change in airflow, resulting in the elevator exceesing it's critical angle of AOA. Normally caused by icing, or in some aircraft, such as a highwing, deploying the flaps at speeds above the max flap operating speed may alter the airflow / AOA enough to stall it. result is a sudden nose low attitude with little or no warning. recovery is opposite of a normal stall recovery. control forces required to unstall the elevator can exceed 150 lbs in light aircraft.I would never want to demonstrate one

[TUCKnTRUCK]

To further elaborate, Ice tends to build up on surfaces with a thinner profile first, so in a 172 your wing may be clean, but ice may still be on the tail surfaces. this alters the airflow some, but the plane sit still flying. then on short final, you apply final flaps (35?) the rsulting pitch change causes the crit AOA of the elevator to be exceeded. the first warning you get is the sudden extreem nose down pitch, and the yoke slamming forward. NTSB report would read... Aircraft departed controled flight on short final. Impacted at a steep nose down pitch attitude. No mechanical defects or anomolies notes. Primary cause Pilots failure to maintain aircraft control and or airspeed.this is one of the reasons if u suspect airframe icing in an airplane not certified for ice, configuration changes are cautioned against

[Maurus]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Which way were you turning? It doesn't sound like cross controlling the airplane in a stall is a good way to prevent a spin.

I was in a right climbing turn for the power-on stall. When you stall the airplane in a right turn, the will nose will pitch down and dive to the left. If you don't do opposite rudder of where the aircraft is going you will spin.

[doog]

I was always taught to let the stall fully develop before recovering, but on my commercial checkride the examiner scolded me for delaying the recovery... so the answer is it probably depends... if going for the commercial I would recover on the first buffet.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by Maurus

I was in a right climbing turn for the power-on stall. When you stall the airplane in a right turn, the will nose will pitch down and dive to the left. If you don't do opposite rudder of where the aircraft is going you will spin.

I've never seen that before

My experience has been a stall in a turn is as boring as a stall straight ahead if you are coordinated.

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I was taught:

PPL - full stall
Commercial - buffet
CFI - full stall
ATP - buffet

Same way here. Same way I teach my students.

-Rob

[Nihon_Ni]

Originally Posted by Maurus

I was in a right climbing turn for the power-on stall. When you stall the airplane in a right turn, the will nose will pitch down and dive to the left. If you don't do opposite rudder of where the aircraft is going you will spin.

Originally Posted by Clocks

I've never seen that before

My experience has been a stall in a turn is as boring as a stall straight ahead if you are coordinated.

I agree with Clocks--never seen that one before. Most likely you're not in coordinated flight at the moment of stall even though you think you are.

Don't forget about your friend: torque. That's one of the left-turning tendencies, and as speed is reduced it's effect is more apparent. That is certainly contributing to the left roll you described.

The other question I'd ask is have you had the same experience in a different tail number airplane of the same make & model? I owned a Grumman Yankee a few years ago, and it would always break to the left when I stalled it. I spent hours practicing stalls while working on my CFI trying to get both wings to break at once, but could never do it. Something about the left wing's physical characteristics 30 yrs after it was manufactured made that wing stall first.

Blue skies,
Rob

[Maurus]

Originally Posted by Nihon_Ni

I agree with Clocks--never seen that one before. Most likely you're not in coordinated flight at the moment of stall even though you think you are.

Don't forget about your friend: torque. That's one of the left-turning tendencies, and as speed is reduced it's effect is more apparent. That is certainly contributing to the left roll you described.

The other question I'd ask is have you had the same experience in a different tail number airplane of the same make & model? I owned a Grumman Yankee a few years ago, and it would always break to the left when I stalled it. I spent hours practicing stalls while working on my CFI trying to get both wings to break at once, but could never do it. Something about the left wing's physical characteristics 30 yrs after it was manufactured made that wing stall first.

Blue skies,
Rob

Different tail number and everything for my previous experiences. I was in a 172L for my practice doing stalls in a turn. It acted exactly the same as the 172RG on my check ride. Except since I was in an established climb with power it was a bit more violent in the RG.

[Nihon_Ni]

Originally Posted by Maurus

Different tail number and everything for my previous experiences. I was in a 172L for my practice doing stalls in a turn. It acted exactly the same as the 172RG on my check ride. Except since I was in an established climb with power it was a bit more violent in the RG.

It seems like torque is the trouble maker here. The RG has 40 extra ponies over the stock L model, so that may be why it was more exciting in the RG.

[Maurus]

Originally Posted by Nihon_Ni

It seems like torque is the trouble maker here. The RG has 40 extra ponies over the stock L model, so that may be why it was more exciting in the RG.

That would be my guess

[Codyjp]

as long as you are properly corrdinated the plane should stall without any yawing... plan ahead with your rudder!

I personally would choose turning stalls any day over stalls strait ahead on a checkride. Why? Because you don't have to maintain +/-10 degrees of heading and that is just one less thing to worry about!

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Nihon_Ni

It seems like torque is the trouble maker here. The RG has 40 extra ponies over the stock L model, so that may be why it was more exciting in the RG.

If by torque you mean the left yawing tendencies, I'm skeptical they're at issue here; you have the yaw under control with the rudder, so there is isn't any net torque. I also did my CFI in an RG and recall their stalls as being no different from the N models.

There's always the possibly of rigging issues to cause one wing to stall before another, but ignoring that, theory says that the outside wing should stall first in a climbing turn, and the inside wing should stall first during a descending turn, even with the ball centered. The reason is that in any turn other than level, the aircraft is in a constant roll; the roll induces differences in AOA on one wing vs. the other.

If you will use a model airplane, you can see that a climbing airplane in a left turn is actually rolling to the right. That will, in theory, cause that wing to stall opposite to the turn. (Well documented in a number of aerodynamics books.)

[Maurus]

Torque is only a left yawing tendency on the ground. Once you are in the air, it is turned into a left rolling tendency.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Maurus

Torque is only a left yawing tendency on the ground. Once you are in the air, it is turned into a left rolling tendency.

Torque is a generic term often applied to the left yawing as well as the left rolling tendencies. Not completely inaccurate, since they're all rotational forces, just the axes are different. However, to be consistent with current FAA terminology, torque most specifically refers to engine torque, or rather the equal and opposite reaction to it.

However, the poster seemed to be using torque in the generic sense, rather than specific. Not that relevant anyway, since both yawing and rotational forces are in equilibrium.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Torque is a generic term often applied to the left yawing as well as the left rolling tendencies. Not completely inaccurate, since they're all rotational forces, just the axes are different. However, to be consistent with current FAA terminology, torque most specifically refers to engine torque, or rather the equal and opposite reaction to it.

However, the poster seemed to be using torque in the generic sense, rather than specific. Not that relevant anyway, since both yawing and rotational forces are in equilibrium.

Man.....I really miss the tiffs between you and midlifeflyer. Any chance of bringing those back soon? I learned a lot of stuff from those girth measuring contests.