Gold Seal

[Flies2Much]

I have a gold seal question for all the CFIs out there. I instructed for a little over a year before going to a regional. I worked my butt off not only to make ends meet, but I really liked teaching others to fly. Anyways, I have a pass rate of 9 out of 11. So technically I qualify for a gold seal. I went to the FAA's site and tried to research how to obtain a gold seal and among other things I noticed I need to get a ground instructor's certificate... why? I am a CFI/ CFII/ MEI. A ground instructor certificate would not give me any more instructor priveledges than my flight instructor certificates. Is there a grandfather clause or anything that any of you know about? Do any airline pilots out there think a gold seal will help anywhere down the line?

Thanks in advance,
Phil

[Pilot Hopeful]

No grandfather clause exists in the regulations, right? The ground instructor certificate is simply one FAA requirement for the gold seal. Since most of the work is already completed, why not take the written test for ground instructor certification? The gold seal definitely sets you apart from other CFI/CFII/MEIs.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Pilot Hopeful

I need to get a ground instructor's certificate.

Because the FAA had to come up with some criteria that is measurable, rather than subjective. As is so often the case, the measurable criteria are meaningless. So is the Gold Seal.

[mojo6911]

Why do you want the gold seal?

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Why do you want the gold seal?

Its a great way to renew your CFI! Plus it just looks good on a resume, etc.

[wanabe]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

Its a great way to renew your CFI! Plus it just looks good on a resume, etc.

I just got my Gold Seal on Thursday. The FSDO rep was adamant that it was not a renewal, it was processed as a "reissuance". The expiration date on my certificate remained the same.

[Flies2Much]

Originally Posted by wanabe

it was processed as a "reissuance". The expiration date on my certificate remained the same.

I thought 4/5 passes would renew and 8/10 would equal a gold seal? I may be looking at moving into a training department some day, and I think the gold seal would look appealing to most companies.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Because the FAA had to come up with some criteria that is measurable, rather than subjective. As is so often the case, the measurable criteria are meaningless. So is the Gold Seal.

It is very unfortunate that you openly express such a negative opinion of our training environment. It openly expresses bitterness and/or disappointment in the certification system.

I, too, think the 'Gold Seal' should be like another 'higher' instructor 'rating' that requires a higher level of experience to obtain, but in the interim, let's use what we have.

The Gold Seal indicates that you are a 2-year instructor; good for an employer to know.

The Gold Seal means you can be hired to do Ground School, or Simulator, with no medical, and no government required record of knowledge test sign-offs.

These 2 items alone can be paperwork and headache savers for a flight school.

It also indicates a willingness to grow, expand, increase your knowledge and credentials. (even if it doesn't, it shows a desire)

Maybe none of these items mean anything to you, but they do to some, 'Old Skool'.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by nosehair

It is very unfortunate that you openly express such a negative opinion of our training environment. It openly expresses bitterness and/or disappointment in the certification system.

It's actually an observation about life, rather than our training environment. Everyone should pursue his own definition of excellence if it's to have any meaning at all. Validation by an external agency acts to destroy our own sense of direction by tempting us to pursue their goals rather than our own. The praise of others is a dangerous drug that must be avoided as much as other addictive substances.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

It's actually an observation about life, rather than our training environment. Everyone should pursue his own definition of excellence if it's to have any meaning at all. Validation by an external agency acts to destroy our own sense of direction by tempting us to pursue their goals rather than our own. The praise of others is a dangerous drug that must be avoided as much as other addictive substances.

Woah! Dude! That's way out! ...I mean, I know all that is very true...but way deeper than what I percieved as a surface 'brush-off' of a valid goal that exists in the system we live in.

You're talking about a 'perfect world' in which there would be no outside influences and we would all be ethical and raised from day 1 to be self-responsible...and so on and on. uuuh...that just isn't the real world. And it doesn't work to preach and teach to an ideal. We have to talk in terms of reality if the lisener is going to relate.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by nosehair

that just isn't the real world. And it doesn't work to preach and teach to an ideal. We have to talk in terms of reality if the lisener is going to relate.

I thought teachers were to supposed to change the world, rather than conform to it? Why teach otherwise?

I reference "The Fountainhead".

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I thought teachers were to supposed to change the world, rather than conform to it? Why teach otherwise?

I reference "The Fountainhead".

Right! And what you said after I commented on your initial obsevation does intend to change the world for the better, but the initial obsevation on the 'usefulness' of the Gold Seal did not make that impression.

Getting to your second observation is the goal but you won't reach it with remarks intended for those who already understand the underlying intentions.

Maybe I've made myself stupid after all these years of teaching and trying to 'keep-it-simple', but the information you are trying to transmit must be duplicated by the student, or listener, and that is a basic requirement of any communication. That is your job - to find a way to say what you want to say without offending the listener.

Also I don't know the "Fountainhead" reference.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I thought teachers were to supposed to change the world, rather than conform to it? Why teach otherwise?

Set the bar high and people will rise to the challenge, above and beyond the "norm".

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by nosehair

And what you said after I commented on your initial observation does intend to change the world for the better, but the initial observation on the 'usefulness' of the Gold Seal did not make that impression.

The Gold Seal is fool's gold...not the real stuff. It's not worth chasing. As long as you consider it valuable, you won't spend any effort in pursuing the genuine article.

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!

[nosehair]

Do you teach flying for a living? I mean, you have to make a living at it. You are dependent on students coming back to you on a regular basis and you have to charge them for your time, and you have to convince them that they need your instruction and you have to produce testable pilots within a reasonable figure of what was 'advertised by the FAA' (via regulations) to them in the beginning.

I ask because your posts do always seem to be 'esoteric', or tending towards 'idealisim', or 'how-it-should-be' if one accurately applied the theory to the practical.

Have you read any of Richard Bach's stuff? I like to reference "Illusions" as an excellent example of 'how-it-should-be', and how we can, on an individual basis, make things better.

But I/we have to work with those who don't know and don't care about anything but the facts. Gears and gas. If it ain't in the PTS, they don't wanna know. It's hard enough to get them to acknowledge the PTS, much less some airhead kid trying to 'milk' them by telling them there is more - way more than this basic 'license-to-learn' knowledge required by the FAA.

Back to the subject of this thread - the Gold Seal does have some practical value - although it may not provide the level of knowledge/skill/experience that we wish it would/should, but tell me (and others) how it is Fool's Gold, and how it will keep you from finding the real stuff? and what is the real stuff?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by nosehair

Do you teach flying for a living? I mean, you have to make a living at it. You are dependent on students coming back to you on a regular basis

You're saying you have to sell your soul to earn a living?

I don't buy that. You personally may have done so, but it's certainly possible to choose a profession in which the success characteristics lie roughly in line with the things that you value. If what you do is well-known, those who share your values will find you.

I really haven't had a student who was only interested in the PTS and nothing more. Perhaps instructors create those students, rather than find them? Most people are looking for a bit of self-actualization, even if they don't realize it.

I have to laugh at your "milking" remark. I lose money every hour I fly. Still, it saddens me that any teacher would consider a heartfelt desire to help people better themselves to be somehow taking advantage of them. And I haven't been called a "kid' in a long time. You must be very old.

The Gold Seal is fool's gold because it gives the instructor a reward for an 80% pass rate. That's an award for being average. I can't tell you what the "real stuff" is. You have to decide that for yourself, which is why you have to "kill Buddha".

"Jonathon Livingston Seagull" is a powerful book, and "The Fountainhead" is similar in theme, the latter being written by Ayn Rand and one of the most well-known works of literature in the last century. I recommend them both.

[skidz]

What's wrong in someone wanting to get a gold seal??
To me it means that the person takes some pride in her/his work if nothing else.

[Crockrocket94]

Tgrayson is saying that the gold seal rewards someone for being average, which is like a pat on the back for doing the minimum i guess.

We all know that the gold seal doesnt mean you are a superior instructor, but there is no reason you cannot obtain it. If you want it, get it. If not, then dont worry about it.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

You're saying you have to sell your soul to earn a living?

Ahhh, no, I hope I haven't; but I've sure had to do some fancy dealin'.

I really haven't had a student who was only interested in the PTS and nothing more.

This explains a lot about your viewpoint on everything. I have been in both environments where every student was really trying to be all that he could be. But then I have been where the student bought a whole course from zero to commercial with multiengine and flight instructor with the impression that he was buying a pilot job where he only had to sit in a cockpit like a simulator and had not a clue that responsibility was involved. You don't have experience with this brand of student?

Perhaps instructors create those students, rather than find them?

I'm sure this is very true across the board with instructors who don't care or have only been taught the PTS, which covers probably 90% of the current instructor force.

I haven't been called a "kid' in a long time. You must be very old.

It's a term of endearment amongst 'old folks'.

The Gold Seal is fool's gold because it gives the instructor a reward for an 80% pass rate. That's an award for being average. I can't tell you what the "real stuff" is. You have to decide that for yourself, which is why you have to "kill Buddha".

Excellent point! I remember being somewaht disappointed when the "Gold Seal" came out and discovered that same fact; it's just an acknowledgement that you have reached the capability of being an average 2-year instructor.

However, I take that the same as the PTS stuff - having the Gold Seal is like making PTS minimums, it isn't the end-all; and it isn't a place to stop trying to find the real stuff. You do have to decide that for yourself. I see where you're going, and...

"Jonathon Livingston Seagull" is a powerful book, and

is the basic primer to open up your mind to be able to understand "Illusions", and others that follow.

[wildwezul1]

I may be wrong about this, but I just looked up the reg a few days ago about Gold Seal, and all it said was: AGI or IGI CFI w/ IR, ( the only grandfathered clause, because there are some old timers who do not have an instrument rating and do have a CFI) and said 8/10 passing.. But said nothing at all about a 2 year time frame. I do believe this was done away with.

if I'm wrong, please show me a current reg.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by nosehair

is the basic primer to open up your mind to be able to understand "Illusions", and others that follow.

I've read "Illusions" and "Bridge Across Forever". At the time, I liked both books, but I really don't buy into the Bach's New Age stuff.

I don't believe in fate, destiny, soulmates, or that "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". I think that there are many different fates or destinies, many different soulmates, and that when the student is ready, a teacher may or may not appear, depending on both chance and the ability of the student to recognize the teacher.

[Louie1975]

I can't believe the direction this post went.

We have some philosopher pilots on this board! And that is refreshing. One of the best posts I have ever read on an aviation website.

Tgrayson and nosehair...have you guys ever read Richard S. Drury(wrote the Flightlines column for Airways magazine for many years)?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Louie1975

have you guys ever read Richard S. Drury

Not me.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by wildwezul1

I may be wrong about this, but I just looked up the reg a few days ago about Gold Seal, and all it said was: AGI or IGI CFI w/ IR, ( the only grandfathered clause, because there are some old timers who do not have an instrument rating and do have a CFI) and said 8/10 passing.. But said nothing at all about a 2 year time frame. I do believe this was done away with.

if I'm wrong, please show me a current reg.

Actually, it's not a regulation, not one that I am aware of anyway.

I think it's from an Advisory Circular, or some other form of Policy, but not Regulation.

And I haven't seen it in years.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I don't believe in fate, destiny, soulmates, or that "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". I think that there are many different fates or destinies, many different soulmates, and that when the student is ready, a teacher may or may not appear, depending on both chance and the ability of the student to recognize the teacher.

Basicly, me too. I do believe that we must believe we can do something before we can do it. We have to formulate, or postulate, an action by the mind before the body can perform the action. These books give us tools to use, or focus, on these qualities and refine the mind-to-body connection that is at the center of learning to fly.