CFI's rejoice. I need help with a PVT student

[HighFlyingIL]

Alright guys... i've been teaching this one student...just call him Billy for name sake. Well...he's been doing PVT for the past 2 months now and its time for him to take his written test. Someone else signed him off after seeing 3 Sportys.com scores of 80% so we had high hopes of him passing. Nope. He bombed completely and got a 57% ... not even close to passing at the 70% bare minimum. So, then we did about 4-5 hours of ground training with him to try and help him out in his weak areas (which were literally everything) . So, me and 3 other instructors (on different days of course) were helping this poor kid (about 23 yrs. old) out. So, we went over W&B, airspace, FAR's, aerodynamics, etc... well then I personally told him "ok so go take 3-4 more practice tests on sportys.com and we'll get you signed off" So, he takes 2 practice tests and gets a 76% and a 78% . Enough for a sign off but we'de like to see 80% + before sign off. So, goes home and supposedly "studied" until 3am that morning. So, he comes in the next day at 1pm that afternoon and takes another 3 practice tests. He got a 79%, 81% and 83% . So I say to myself "hmmm... thats pretty darn good for a sign off if he gets an 80% on his actual written then thats good" . So, I got called to go on lunch break at 3:00pm (finally) and I left... well when I came back an hour later the student was taking the actual test and I was his assigned instructor for the day.... guess what he got!!!
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68% ........................... he failed YET AGAIN!!! So, NOW i had the AWESOME heartbreaking task of telling him "alright man. your so close. you really are. But, you NEED to pass this 3rd test... if you dont you have to wait 30 days before you can take it again according to the FAR's..." . So, he said "ok" kind of nervously. So, we reviewed what he missed yesterday, and today is my day off, but he's coming in today to get help cuz he needs it... seriously...

I don't know what else to do for the kid. He listens to what we say, but it NEVER seems to register. Especially the aerodynamics, and when it comes to ANYTHING that I teach I tend to ask questions in the middle of my sentences to make sure the student pays attention and is actualyl absorbing this information and he wasn't.... guuuuh... I don't know how to help this ******* kid if he doesnt listen to me, and has no faith in himself. I guess some people just weren't meant to fly honestly...

What the hell can I do? Because we had to call an after-work random meeting to discuss this kid, and a couple other students that have NO motivation when they walk in the door. (aka the slackers and think the CFI's should fly the plane and do everything) type students.

So...what should I do with him? Because now were at the point where we HAVE TO SEE this kid get AT LEAST 85-90% on his darn tests before we sign him off for the 3rd and final time.

[nosehair]

Hey..does that head-slammin' thing work? Looks to me like it hurts.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Any indication of a learning disability? Some problems with standardized test format? A series of =really= bad days? If not there's a real problem:

The knowledge test isn't a real test. It's process for weeding out people. It's a multiple guess test that you study for by reading almost all of the questions and the answers in advance. If you can't get at least a 70, you have no business near anything with moving parts, let alone an airplane.

Unless I found a really good reason to keep going, I'd say good-bye at this point (of course, that's a first impression without knowing the whole story)

[youngflyer]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Any indication of a learning disability? Some problems with standardized test format? A series of =really= bad days? If not there's a real problem:

The knowledge test isn't a real test. It's process for weeding out people. It's a multiple guess test that you study for by reading almost all of the questions and the answers in advance. If you can't get at least a 70, you have no business near anything with moving parts, let alone an airplane.

Unless I found a really good reason to keep going, I'd say good-bye at this point (of course, that's a first impression without knowing the whole story)

Dont you think that that is a little harsh? What is the reason the kid is taking flight lessons? Have you tried talking to the kid about his motivational issues. How does he do in the plane?

[falconvalley]

No it's not too harsh. Like he said, he doesn't know first hand, but the indications are that this student needs a mentor more than a flight instructor. Not everybody is cut out for flying. Hopefully this guy is just going through a bad phase.

[MikeOH58]

I'm sorry to hijack, but could you please reference the FAR saying 3 failures, 30 day waiting period? I haven't come across that, and that is definately fair game on the initial.

thanks

[christina3hunt]

I always want to see 3 consecutive tests above a 90%...

But, that's just me...

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Well, this qualifies for telling the student about the secret of passing the written tests by memorizing the test bank. If your place is using the CATS testing system, have him purchase the ASA written for PPL on cdrom. It looks and feels exactly like what he will see when he takes the real thing.

[Propilot]

I'm with Christina...90% or better before taking the real thing.


Also, I hate these dumb tests....imho its more of a hoop to jump through than actually understanding the material.


keep taking practice tests untill he is 90% 3 times in a row. if he doesnt want to put in the time to do that, cut him loose.

[ftyflyboy]

Have him get the Gleim book and black out all the wrong answers. He can then go over just the correct ones again, and again, and again, repeat until above 90%.

[Stomp16]

I don't know if they're the same test as Sportys, but mywrittenexam.com you can take as many FREE practice tests as you want. They are the same exact questions that are in the current testing bank. Tell him to take about 20 of those in a row and he will be able to answer the questions by only seeing the answer bank. I know......I know, rote memorization, but sometimes, that's what it takes. Good luck.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by youngflyer

Dont you think that that is a little harsh? What is the reason the kid is taking flight lessons? Have you tried talking to the kid about his motivational issues. How does he do in the plane?

I don't think so, after a 57% and a 68% on a test that, lets face it is easy enough that guessing will probably net a 50 or 60. With the possible exception of calculations and leaving pure memorization out of it, this is a test that doesn't require that you =know= the right answer, only that you can =recognize= it. How do yo think this guy is going to do on an oral. So far, I've never heard a DPE say, "How do you know this airplane is airworthy? (a)....."

Couple that with HighFlying's concerns that the guy isn't even listening. Unless there is a real problem, sounds like he can't or doesn't care (which covers your motivation question). It happens. But either way, it sounds like time for some "tough love."

Either that or I'm in a nasty mood today.

[mojo6911]

How is his flying? If it is poor, you can approach it three ways:

1. Stress yourself out trying to get someone who has no business flying to the PTS mins.

2. Realize they are a cash cow, and just continue to provide them instruction services, and don't let it stress you out too bad.

3. Drop him.

[christina3hunt]

Just so everyone knows I have noticed some problems with sporty's in the past. When I was studying for my commercial I noticed that some of the questions were wrong. So I was studying the wrong answers, and it was more than a couple of questions. I find mypilottests.com to be a better website to study from.

[LostComm]

What type of learner is your student? Most people are visual, but he could be an aural learner and have to quite literally have to hear everything before he understands. You might ask him about his high school grades, or college if that's where he is. What are his grades like? How does he study? Has gravitated towards auto and wood shop or math or english? If so, that might suggest he's a kinesthetic kind of guy.

What's his motivation to fly? Who's paying? If it's a "please the parents" sort of thing, maybe he'd be happier as a sport pilot. If he's trying to be a line pilot, he must overcome this at the front end of a flight lifestyle, as these tests will never end. Even after the ATP there are writtens in recurrent and for interviews...

If you go the route of working all this out with him, and he desires a professional in flying, I would consider increasing my billing rate by ten bucks an hour, since you just made his entire life a ton easier. Knowing what type of learner a person is can change their entire life.

One other thing-if your student is CFI shopping, that's fine. He's the client and is paying the bill. You, however, are under no obligation to take a student who refuses to comply with your rules as his primary instructor. If he's shopping, you're on very firm ground dropping him.

Hope it all goes well!

-LC

[beechpilot]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Any indication of a learning disability? Some problems with standardized test format? A series of =really= bad days? If not there's a real problem:

The knowledge test isn't a real test. It's process for weeding out people. It's a multiple guess test that you study for by reading almost all of the questions and the answers in advance. If you can't get at least a 70, you have no business near anything with moving parts, let alone an airplane.

Unless I found a really good reason to keep going, I'd say good-bye at this point (of course, that's a first impression without knowing the whole story)

I tend to agree with a potential test taking problem. There was a student at my flight school that could fly an airplane no problem. He's a great pilot but just couldn't do the tests.

[beechpilot]

Originally Posted by christina3hunt

I always want to see 3 consecutive tests above a 90%...

But, that's just me...

We shoot for high scores on practice tests too because students typically score lower on the actual exam.

[beechpilot]

I might suggest having your student practice on exams4pilots.org. I found it helpful.

[youngflyer]

Originally Posted by beechpilot

I might suggest having your student practice on exams4pilots.org. I found it helpful.

I would stay away from that. I used it for a while but their were many wrong answers and outdated for the PPL.

[beechpilot]

Originally Posted by youngflyer

I would stay away from that. I used it for a while but their were many wrong answers and outdated for the PPL.

That's interesting. When I used it back in '04 everything seemed to be up to date. A lot of the questions on there appeared on my private written. I haven't used it lately so I guess it's possible they could be outdated.

[bdhill1979]

TO me the written test has nothing at all with being a pilot. I has more to do with putting forth effort, dedication, studying, and if all else fails memorizing.


If I had a student getting these kind of scores I would suspend him from flying till the scores came up, and I would raise the standards for another sign off. He needs a chance to take this failure as an opportunity to grow, and turn a serious weakness into a strength.

I agree with the consistent 90%s crowd.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

TO me the written test has nothing at all with being a pilot. I has more to do with putting forth effort, dedication, studying, .

...which, of course, has a lot to do with being a pilot.

[XLR99]

I was also wondering about learning disabilities, ADD, etc., many of which will probably preclude him from successfully becoming a pilot. Realistically, we really don't need someone else who can't understand basics like FARs, airspace and aerodynamics up in the air with us, waiting to make a spectacular accident. It sounds like he just can't grasp the concepts themselves, from what you say, rather than having issues with the testing format. In that case, it could be time for 'the talk", particularly in view of this comment:

What the hell can I do? Because we had to call an after-work random meeting to discuss this kid, and a couple other students that have NO motivation when they walk in the door. (aka the slackers and think the CFI's should fly the plane and do everything) type students.

I'm also curious about his motivation and goals for flying. How many hours does he have, does he have the same issues with the physical skills of flying the airplane, etc. Also, does he have a medical yet? I wonder if something in his history that you don't know yet is a contributor to this issue.

[SlantG]

How is the student taking the test? Is he doing question 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 . . . etc? What happens when he hits a math problem, does he do it immediately? What about one of those monsterous flight planning questions? Does he spend 30 minutes on those, then take the next 79 questions afterwards, now that his brain is fried?

Before the practice test that allows the signoff, did he get a full night's sleep? Or was he up 'til 3 AM studying? If not a full regular night's sleep, have him come back the next day. Being stressed out before a test typically does not make for a good test result.

Teach him the following technique from Howard Fried, then have him do some practice tests: http://www.avweb.com/news/eyeofex/182183-1.html

Are the scores noticably improved? Is he able to do the practice test in about 30 minutes? Okay, now what areas are causing problems, down to the specific questions that are causing problems? Does the student know it is okay to memorize answers? Some of this stuff is rote learning.

Can you as the instructor go through and correct misunderstandings in those? Does the test prep provider have the answers wrong (we may never know)? You will need to open up the test prep book, go to the specific question, and work through the answer with the student.

HTH.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

...which, of course, has a lot to do with being a pilot.

exactly

What I meant to say is that to me it is not so much about the knowledge, but the work involved to complete it.