Ride coming up!! Comm prividleges & limits

[E_Dawg]

Say I JUST got my commercial license and am acting ALONE. I can:

-Do anything in 119.1 applicibility; whatever 119.1 doesn't apply to (like flight instructing)

Anything else???


Also, what is the definition of a charter? It's not in part 1.

[mtsu_av8er]

Pretty much, anything that's not classified as a part 121 operation or a 135 operation, you can do! Sightseeing flights, corporate pilot, flight instruction, banner towing, ag flying....it's wide open!! You can't be hired into a 135 op without 500 hours (and the other various requirements), and even then, it's with the VFR-only restriction. You CAN be hired into a 121 operation, however.

That's pretty much it! If I've forgotten anything, somebody let me know!!

[E_Dawg]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much, anything that's not classified as a part 121 operation or a 135 operation, you can do! Sightseeing flights, corporate pilot, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

See that's where I'm just a bit confused... As I understand:

=====
Private Carriage:
91: exceptions to 119.1 and anything not covered in 121, 125, or 135
125: 20+ seats or 6000+lbs payload
135: >20 seats and >6000lbs payload, On Demand Ops (which, by definition, are conducted as a charter)

Common Carriage:
121: Air transportation (Air Carrier)
135: No air transportation (Commercial Operator)
=====

Sooooooo, the only things I could do would be under 91 if I'm acting alone. Besides the list in 119.1, this means only private carriage that's not under 121 or 135, but what private carriage would fall under that???

How do you fly corporate under 91? Would a newly minted commercial pilot be able to (not that he'd get hired...)?

This is probably way overkill for the oral prep... but it's pretty confusing and I'd rather overcook it than not cook it enough

[pilot602]

It's pretty simple actually. About all you can do with a new commrecial certificate is flight instruct (once you hold an appropriate instructor rating) and/or fly someone else's airplane for them. Just about everything else falls under stuff the FAA looks down on.

135 ops require 1,200tt and some other requirements for PIC. Not sure about SIC I'm sure someone here knows.

121 ops don't require a set amount of time (which is why Mesa can "hire" guys at 300hrs) but ubless you get extremely, extremely lucky youi just aren't going to find a job under 121 at 300 hours.

But the reality of it is with 300-400 hours you just aren't going to be able to do anything outside of instructing. A new commercial certificate is about as useful as expecting a 6 month old to run the New York marathon.

[zlpratt]

This is always a tough topic to tackle. There are so many grey areas. It all depends on how conservatively you interpret the regs. You can do all that stuff in 119.1, you can fly a guy somewhere in HIS airplane if he comes to you and you don't negotiate a price, you can fly SIC in a 135 or 121 operation. TO fly PIC in a 135 you have to have 1200tt as previously stated, and to fly PIC in a 121 you have to have an ATP.

The big thing about flying people around is that:

1.) a guy can't come up to you and tell you where he wants to go and you rent a plane to take him there (that is holding out)
2.) You can't negotiate the price - if he says hey i'll pay you 200 dollars to take me to Catalina in MY airplane you can't say I'll do it for $300. Take the $200 or nothing.
3.) If you get too many flights and you are paid the FAA could get suspicious and look at it like you have been advertising you commercial pilot liscense (again holding out).

It is all very weird basically just be careful with how you do it. If it is in 119.1 you are O.K.

Also, there is an advisory circular out on this topic that you can get from www.faa.gov.

ZP

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
. . . you can fly a guy somewhere in HIS airplane if he comes to you and you don't negotiate a price. . .

[/ QUOTE ]

Reaaallly gray area. What if he "employs" you as his pilot...can you negotiate your salary?

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
2.) You can't negotiate the price - if he says hey i'll pay you 200 dollars to take me to Catalina in MY airplane you can't say I'll do it for $300. Take the $200 or nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard this. And I doubt I believe it. If he is coming to you and asking for your service you have every right to set a price. Negotiating your salary has nothing to do with holding out, private/common carraige or the like - it has to do with being compensated for your abilities/services which is the whole reason you went out and got a commercial certificate in the first place.

I could be wrong but I'd like to see the CFR/Legal Opinion that states this.

[E_Dawg]

Yeah, I've read the AC a few times, 'Private Carriage vs Common Carriage'. It really doesn't explain the more difficult questions...

Anyways, if I get asked anything like this my answer is 'Call the FSDO'. Can't go wrong with that... but still it's probably the most confusing mess of regs in the FARs.

[av8rmsu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2.) You can't negotiate the price - if he says hey i'll pay you 200 dollars to take me to Catalina in MY airplane you can't say I'll do it for $300. Take the $200 or nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard this. And I doubt I believe it. If he is coming to you and asking for your service you have every right to set a price. Negotiating your salary has nothing to do with holding out, private/common carraige or the like - it has to do with being compensated for your abilities/services which is the whole reason you went out and got a commercial certificate in the first place.

I could be wrong but I'd like to see the CFR/Legal Opinion that states this.



[/ QUOTE ]


I don't agree either...

If the guy offers twenty dollars and you say no....

this isn't holding out....

just knowing what your services are worth

[pilot602]

If this were true the guy could offer $2/hr or ask you fly for free. I don't buy it.

[av8rmsu]

[ QUOTE ]
If this were true the guy could offer $2/hr or ask you fly for free. I don't buy it.



[/ QUOTE ]


$2 an hour....oh, i'd buy it


But I sure as hell wouldn't fly for it.

[zlpratt]

Read the advisory circular on it or as said call the FSDO. This whole topic is very confusing, the way I explained it was the way it was explained to me. It may be wrong, who knows. I think the point my instructor was getting at is if a guy comes to you and offers $200 for you to take him XXX, and you say $300 and he accepts, then he tells another guy that you will fly to XXX for $300 and so on. Thereby creating an illusion of holding out to the FAA. How accurate is this, I don't know honestly, I would have to research it more. But the consensus here seems to be that that notion is incorrect.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree either...

If the guy offers twenty dollars and you say no....

this isn't holding out....

just knowing what your services are worth



[/ QUOTE ]

You can turn someone down, which I would for $20, I saw the issue as negotiating. I am at odds with myself over this one, it is off the study the FARs for now!!

[zlpratt]

Here is the text from the FAA Advisory Circular 120-12A. This AC deals with private vs. common carriage. Maybe this will help.

[ QUOTE ]
U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
Advisory Circular
Sdject: PRIVATE CARRIAGE VERSUS COMMON Date: 4124186 AC No: 12042A
CARRIAGE OF PERSONS OR PROPERTY Initiated by: AFS-820 Change:
1 0 PURPOSE. This advisory circular furnishes Federal Aviation Administration
(FAAmnnel and interested segments of industry with general guidelines for
determining whether current or proposed transportation operations by air
constitute private or common carriage. If the operations are in interstate or
foreign commerce, this distinction determines whether or not the operator needs
economic authority as an "air carrier" from the Department of Transportation.
Operations that constitute common carriage are required to be conducted under
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) Parts 121 or 135. Private carriage may be
conducted under FAR Parts 125 or 91, Subpart D. Operations conducted under FAR
Section 91.181, which permits certain charges to be made, may also be subject to
these guidelines , particularly the "time sharing" provisions of FAR
Section 91.181(c)(l). It should also be noted that lease agreements -entered
into under FAR Section 91.181 are subject to FAR Section 91.54, "Truth%
leasing clause requirement in leases and conditional sales contracts."
2 CANCELLATION. Advisory Circular 120-12, Private Carriage Versus Common
Cirriage By Comercial Operators Using Large Aircraft, dated June 24, 1964, is canceled.
3 BACKGROUND. "Common carriage" and “private carriage" are common law terms.
The Federal Aviation Act of 1958 uses the term "common carriage" but does not
define it. It has therefore been determined that guidelines giving general
explanations of the term "common carriage" and its opposite, "private carriage,"
would be helpful,
4 GUIDELINES.
to the public,
A carrier becomes a common carrier when it "holds itself out"
or to a segment of the public, as willing to furnish
transportation within the limits of its facilities to any person who wants it.
Absence of tariffs or rate schedules, transportation only pursuant to separately
negotiated contracts, or occasional refusals to transport, are not conclusive
proof that the carrier is not a common carrier. There are four elements in
defining a common carrier; (1) a holding out of a willingness to (2) transport
persons or property (3) from place to place (4) for compensation. This "holding
out" which makes a person a common carrier can be done in many ways and it does
not matter how it is done.
a. Signs and advertising are the most direct means of "holding out"
but are not the only ones.AC 120~12A 4124186
b. A "holding out" may be accomplished through the actions of agents,
agencies, or salesmen who may, themselves , procure passenger traffic from the
general public and collect them into groups to be carried by the operator. It
is particularly important to determine if such agents or salesmen are in the
business of selling transportation to the traveling public not only through
the '*group*' approach but also by individual ticketing on known common carriers.
c. physical1 y holding out without advertising where a reputation to serve
all is gained is sufficient to constitute an offer to carry all customers. There
are many means by which physical holding out may take place. For example, the
expression of willingness to all customers with whom contact is made that the
operator can and will perform the requested service is sufficient. The fact that
the holding out generates little success is of no consequence. The nature and
character of the operation are the important issue.
d. Carriage for hire which does not involve "holding out" is private
carriage. Private carriers for hire are sometimes called "contract carriers," but
the term is borrowed from the Interstate Commerce Act and legally inaccurate when I*
used in connection with the Federal Aviation Act. Private carriage for hire is
carriage for one or several selected customers , generally on a long-term basis.
The number of contracts must not be too great, otherwise it implies a willingness
to make a contract with anybody. A carrier operating pursuant to 18 to 24
contracts has been held to be a common carrier because it held itself out to s,erve
the public generally to the extent of its facilities. Private carriage'has -been '
found in cases where three contracts have been the sole basis of the operator's
business. Special adaptation of the transportation service to the individual L
needs of shippers is a factor tending to establish private carriage but is not
necessarily conclusive.
e. A carrier holding itself out as generally willing to carry only certain
kinds of traffic is, nevertheless, a common carrier. For instance, a carrier
authorized or willing only to carry planeloads of passengers, cargo, or mail on a
charter basis is a common carrier, if it so holds itself out. This is, in fact,
the basic business of supplemental air carriers.
f. A carrier flying charters for only one organization may be a common
carrier if membership in the organization and participation in the flights are, in
effect, open to a significant segment of the public. Similarly, a carrier which
flies planeload charters for a common carrier, carrying the latter's traffic,
engages in common carriage itself.
& Occasionally, offers of free transportation have been made to the general
public by hotels, casinos, etc. In such cases, nominal charges have been made
which, according to the operators, bear the expense of gifts and gratuities.
However, the operators maintain that the transportation is free. The courts have
held that such operations are common carriage based on the fact that the passengers
are drawn from the general public and the nominal charge constituted compensation.
Par 44124186 AC 120912A
h. Persons admittedly operating as common carriers in a certain field (for
instance, in intrastate commerce) sometimes claim that transportation for hire
which they perform in other fields (for instance, interstate or foreign commerce)
is private carriage. To sustain such a claim, the carrier must show that the
private carriage is clearly distinguishable from its common carriage business
and outside the scope of its holding out. The claimed private carriage must be
viewed in relation to and against the background of the entire carrying activity.
Historically, Civil Aeronautics Board decisions have concluded that only in rare
instances could carriage engaged in by a common carrier be legitimately
classified as private.
i. In summary, persons intending to conduct only private operations in
support of other business should look cautiously at any proposal for revenue-generating
flights which most likely would require certification as an air
carrier.
je Persons who have questions concerning intended operation of their
aircraft are encouraged to discuss their proposed operation with the Regional
Counsel of the FAA region in which it intends to establish its principal
business office. Such early interviews will materially assist the applicant
in avoiding many of the "pitfalls" which could result in illegal common carriage
operations.
klliam T. Brennan
Acting Director of Flight Standards
Par 4

[/ QUOTE ]

[av8rmsu]

Didn't help a bit...

Love me some FAA


It still is so gray....

Are there any examples of the FAA "busting" someone for holding out or any other type of commercial infractions?

[zlpratt]

Not that I am aware of. That AC almost contradicts itself, because it says that 18-24 contracts are acceptable, bt then later advises against too many. Its like the FAA wanted to define itself, but then it still left enough room to bust anybody that they didn't really like carrying people around. Wait, that's the way they always do it.. I forgot.

ZP

[raysalmon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much, anything that's not classified as a part 121 operation or a 135 operation, you can do! Sightseeing flights, corporate pilot, ...

[/ QUOTE ]

See that's where I'm just a bit confused... As I understand:

=====
Private Carriage:
91: exceptions to 119.1 and anything not covered in 121, 125, or 135
125: 20+ seats or 6000+lbs payload
135: >20 seats and >6000lbs payload, On Demand Ops (which, by definition, are conducted as a charter)

Common Carriage:
121: Air transportation (Air Carrier)
135: No air transportation (Commercial Operator)
=====

Sooooooo, the only things I could do would be under 91 if I'm acting alone. Besides the list in 119.1, this means only private carriage that's not under 121 or 135, but what private carriage would fall under that???

How do you fly corporate under 91? Would a newly minted commercial pilot be able to (not that he'd get hired...)?

This is probably way overkill for the oral prep... but it's pretty confusing and I'd rather overcook it than not cook it enough

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of minor technical things:

Both 121 and 135 operators hold Air Carrier certificates, and both are providing air transportation services. In general terms (and there are exceptions) 121 is scheduled and 135 is on-demand, that is the overall distinction.

Part 125 is for non-common carriage where the aircraft have more than 20 passenger seats or a payload capacity of more than 6000 lbs.

Ray

[pilot602]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the point my instructor was getting at is if a guy comes to you and offers $200 for you to take him XXX, and you say $300 and he accepts, then he tells another guy that you will fly to XXX for $300 and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

He'd do the same exact thing if you took the initial $200 - that he offered. So what's the difference? You, as a pilot, cannot control what other people do or say. You can only control your own behavior. As a pilot you have every right to determine your own worth. And no where does the AC say one word about negotiating price as a condition/definition of either common or private carraige or holding out.

The interesting question, now, is can a commercial pilot offer/advertise his services as such - a commercial pilot. I ran the "negotiating" question by my instructor and she hadn't heard anythign about it but did bring up the topic that as a commercial pilot you are not allowed to put up a flyer saying, essentially, "Hey I'm Joe Schmo, a commercial pilot, I'm looking for a job/I'll fly your plane." That in doing so you would be "holding out."

I argued that if that were true how in the hell are you supposed to find a job. I also argued that the AC dealt with the operation of the aircraft/business and the operator of the aircraft - not the pilot of someone elses aircaft. But after reading the circular again I'm not so sure.

[ QUOTE ]
4 GUIDELINES.
To the public, A carrier becomes a common carrier when it "holds itself out" or to a segment of the public, as willing to furnish transportation within the limits of its facilities to any person who wants it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This paragraph seems to support my view - that the FAA looks at the operational control by the owner of the aircraft.

[ QUOTE ]
There are four elements in defining a common carrier; (1) a holding out of a willingness to (2) transport persons or property (3) from place to place (4) for compensation. This "holding out" which makes a person a common carrier can be done in many ways and it does not matter how it is done.

[/ QUOTE ]

This paragraph brings the definition to a single person. It still does not define the person as the pilot of the aircraft but it doesn't rpeclude the pilot either.

Guess it's time to make a trip to Doc's and do some research.

If it is true that a commercial pilot can not advertise his or her services as only that - a commercial pilot available to render service as a pilot in someone else's aircraft - then there is no point whatsoever to earn a commercial pilot certificate at anything under 1,200hrs. If the FAA's view is to limit commercial certificates to flight instruction only they should change the commercial certificate requirements to 1,200 hours and grant flight instructor ratings the privilige of flying for hire.

[zlpratt]

Exactly, it is very limiting to what you can do with a commercial certificate. You can however work as a corporate pilot under Part 91, simply because you a an employee of someone, not contracting out your work. SO barring the negotiating thing from having anything to do with how you can act as a commercial pilot, it seems the FAA still very much restricts what we as commercial pilots can do.

ZP

[pilot602]

How do you find that "corporate" pilot (I prefer the term "personal" or pilot) job if you can not tell people that you are a commercial pilot?

If the AC does, indeed, limit this type of "advertising" it is overbrudening and limits the right of a commercial pilot to ply the priviliges of his certificate - priviliges granted to him by the FAA and as such should be challenged in court.

It's like saying laywers, who are self employed, are not allowed to advertise their services because they don't work for a law firm.

But, I don't believe the AC is this restrictive. I believe the AC is intedended to keep operators (individual owners, or businesses) from offering passenger service outside the confines of 121 and 135. I do not believe it goes so far as to restrict pilots from offering their services to aircraft owners/operators. If the commercial pilot were advertising his services to the general public as a pilot that would transport them anywhere they wished to go that would be a different story. But a pilotthat advertises his services to aircraft owners/operators in order to secure a job working under the rules of a given operator/owner I can not see as being labeled "holding out."

Beacue in the end "holding out" is inexorably tied to common carraige and a pilot advertising his services as a pilot to fly a plane is not common carriage.

[Alchemy]

As I understand, you can "hold out" to the public your services as a pilot. You cannot "hold out" to the public carriage of passengers or cargo. It's perfectly fine to advertise your services as a pilot.

[zlpratt]

This topic reinforces the fact that the FAA leaves way too much gray in the regs, even when they put out an AC to help alleviate the confusion. I really wish they could find it in themselves to make their intentions clear. Yeah right....

[mrivc211]

good luck Ed! I'm sure you'll do fine!

[ready2fly]

Knock the bottom out of it, Ed!!

[ananoman]

"Holding out" and advertising have nothing to do with offering pilot services. Common Carriage is when you provide a pilot and an aircraft to transport people and property for hire. You can advertise yourself and the fact that you want to fly anyones airplane who will pay you all you want. You are only providing common carriage when you also provide the airplane. If someone wants you to fly their aircraft you can negotiate as much as you want. This is the basis for all part 91 corporate aviation.

You can even fly someone who 'rents' an airplane anywhere they want to go. You just cannot be the one who arranges for the rental. This is where people get themselves into trouble. You cannot run a business that 'rents' airplanes, then have your clients call a list of pilots that you provide who you happen to employ as flight instructors. Even if you claim that they are independent contractors.

When you think about it, this system makes sense. If you hold yourself out to the public, most people know little about aviation. The FAA regulates part 135 operators to protect the public and provide a higher level of safety. But, it would be overly restrictive to say that a commercial pilot cannot transport anyone under any circumstances for compensation. If you are a commerical pilot and your parents want you to fly them somewhere and they offer to pay for the airplane, this is legal. If you make it known that you will fly anyone who ask anywhere they want to go, this is not and you are engaged in common carriage.

[chrisdahut1]

I second eveything ananoman said.

Simply put you cannot provide both the "horse and cart". That, as well as knowing whether your operation falls in the realm of 119.1(e), is the real test of whether or not you are "legal" to operate without a commercial operator certificate.