Dual instruction and expired med.

jetman · November 5th, 2003, 11:53

Hi guys
Can a PPL receive dual instruction for the comm lic.while wating to renew the medical that expired 2 weeks ago?

Tnx a lot

av8rmsu · November 5th, 2003, 12:28

[ QUOTE ]
Hi guys
Can a PPL receive dual instruction for the comm lic.while wating to renew the medical that expired 2 weeks ago?

Tnx a lot

[/ QUOTE ]

Read FAR 61.3 (c)(1)

To log PIC, it looks like he has to have a current medical. I believe he could still log the dual, but not PIC.

raysalmon · November 5th, 2003, 13:19

He may not ACT as PIC without at least a Third Class Medical. So long as the CFI is the acting PIC (who must have at least a Third Class Medical in order to act as PIC), then the student need not have a medical. He must have a medical to take the checkride.

Logging of PIC time is not affected by not having a medical. If the student is the sole manipulator and he is rated in the airplane that they are flying, he may log PIC.

Ray

av8rmsu · November 5th, 2003, 13:38

If he is not ACTING as PIC, then how can he log PIC?

Where is that in the FAR's? My understanding of 61.3 is different.

EatSleepFly · November 5th, 2003, 14:08

Acting and logging are two entirely different things. Do a search or start digging through your shiny new '04 FAR/AIM. This topic gets beat to death almost weekly.

MidlifeFlyer · November 5th, 2003, 14:08

[ QUOTE ]
Read FAR 61.3 (c)(1)

To log PIC, it looks like he has to have a current medical. I believe he could still log the dual, but not PIC.

[/ QUOTE ] No, he can log both dual and PIC time. You are correct about what 61.3 says. To "act" as PIC, he must have a current medical. But 61.31 has nothing to do with logging PIC time. The universe of "logging" PIC is contained in 61.51.

Rule 1: If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.

Always remember the difference between the two:

Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.

av8rmsu · November 5th, 2003, 14:23

Tail between legs.....walking away.......

MidlifeFlyer · November 5th, 2003, 14:38

[ QUOTE ]
Tail between legs.....walking away.......

[/ QUOTE ]Don't worry about it. If you ever get to go to a live FIRC, you'll find that logging issues ranks No 1 in lack of understanding among CFIs.

Heath · November 5th, 2003, 15:42

OK, now I've got a question after reading that wording. I read on a previous post from beating this to death in the past that both the instructor and the student could log PIC so long as the student had at least a PPL. The wording there looks like only the "sole manipulator" of the controls gets to log PIC.

So if the instructor is "acting" as PIC, but the student is flying the plane, does the instructor log PIC, too?

MidlifeFlyer · November 5th, 2003, 16:12

[ QUOTE ]
OK, now I've got a question after reading that wording. I read on a previous post from beating this to death in the past that both the instructor and the student could log PIC so long as the student had at least a PPL. The wording there looks like only the "sole manipulator" of the controls gets to log PIC.

So if the instructor is "acting" as PIC, but the student is flying the plane, does the instructor log PIC, too?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. 61.51 is still the known universe. But my "Rule 1" doesn't include all of the logging rules that are in the regulation. (Rule 1 is actually one of a group of 5 which don't cover CFIs - FWIW, I pasted the whole group into the bottom of this message)

CFIs are a special case. 61.51(e)(3) says: "An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor." So, the CFI's ability lo log PIC isn't dependent on acting as PIC (the CFI is not always PIC anyway) or manipulating anything, but merely because she is in the aircraft giving instruction.

Here's "The Rules"

==============================
Here's a simple version of the rules as they have been written in the FAR and repeatedly and consistently interpreted by the FAA Chief Counsel for at least 20 years.

(I'm limiting it to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPs can fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.)

Rule 1
If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for.

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.

Rule 2
If you are a student, recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the only person in the aircraft.

This means that even without category and class ratings, you may log PIC time if you are solo. In addition to the obvious (student solo) it also means, for example, that if you are ASEL and solo in an AMEL or ASES, you may log the time as PIC.

Rule 3
If you are a private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are acting as PIC* of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required.

More than one pilot may be required because the aircraft is not certified for single-pilot operations. But more common for us, it covers simulated instrument flight where a second "safety pilot" is required by the regulations all the time that the "manipulator" is under the hood. If the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is acting as PIC, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC.

Rule 4
Based on a unpublished 1977 Chief Counsel opinion (there is some reasonable disagreement on whether it's still any good), you may log PIC if you are acting as PIC* and you are the only person on board with the necessary aircraft ratings.

This is the answer to the silly question: "Can I log PIC while I let my two year old fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can't imagine that the FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another.

Rule 5
If you are a student, recreational, private, or commercial pilot and don't fit into Rules 1-4, you may not log the time as PIC even if you are acting as PIC.

*"Acting as PIC" assumes that you are qualified to act as PIC. That does mean being current and having the appropriate endorsements in addition to ratings.

Keep them straight
Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.
==============================

November 5th, 2003, 11:53	#1
jetman Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 188	Dual instruction and expired med. Hi guys Can a PPL receive dual instruction for the comm lic.while wating to renew the medical that expired 2 weeks ago? Tnx a lot

November 5th, 2003, 12:28	#2
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. [ QUOTE ] Hi guys Can a PPL receive dual instruction for the comm lic.while wating to renew the medical that expired 2 weeks ago? Tnx a lot [/ QUOTE ] Read FAR 61.3 (c)(1) To log PIC, it looks like he has to have a current medical. I believe he could still log the dual, but not PIC.

November 5th, 2003, 13:19	#3
raysalmon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: CO Posts: 260	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. He may not ACT as PIC without at least a Third Class Medical. So long as the CFI is the acting PIC (who must have at least a Third Class Medical in order to act as PIC), then the student need not have a medical. He must have a medical to take the checkride. Logging of PIC time is not affected by not having a medical. If the student is the sole manipulator and he is rated in the airplane that they are flying, he may log PIC. Ray

November 5th, 2003, 13:38	#4
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. If he is not ACTING as PIC, then how can he log PIC? Where is that in the FAR's? My understanding of 61.3 is different.

November 5th, 2003, 14:08	#5
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. Acting and logging are two entirely different things. Do a search or start digging through your shiny new '04 FAR/AIM. This topic gets beat to death almost weekly.

November 5th, 2003, 14:08	#6
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. [ QUOTE ] Read FAR 61.3 (c)(1) To log PIC, it looks like he has to have a current medical. I believe he could still log the dual, but not PIC. [/ QUOTE ] No, he can log both dual and PIC time. You are correct about what 61.3 says. To "act" as PIC, he must have a current medical. But 61.31 has nothing to do with logging PIC time. The universe of "logging" PIC is contained in 61.51. Rule 1: If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. "Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions. Always remember the difference between the two: Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.

November 5th, 2003, 14:23	#7
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. Tail between legs.....walking away.......

November 5th, 2003, 14:38	#8
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. [ QUOTE ] Tail between legs.....walking away....... [/ QUOTE ]Don't worry about it. If you ever get to go to a live FIRC, you'll find that logging issues ranks No 1 in lack of understanding among CFIs.

November 5th, 2003, 15:42	#9
Heath Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Bowling Green, KY Posts: 303	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. OK, now I've got a question after reading that wording. I read on a previous post from beating this to death in the past that both the instructor and the student could log PIC so long as the student had at least a PPL. The wording there looks like only the "sole manipulator" of the controls gets to log PIC. So if the instructor is "acting" as PIC, but the student is flying the plane, does the instructor log PIC, too?

November 5th, 2003, 16:12	#10
MidlifeFlyer Old Skool Join Date: May 2003 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2,978	Re: Dual instruction and expired med. [ QUOTE ] OK, now I've got a question after reading that wording. I read on a previous post from beating this to death in the past that both the instructor and the student could log PIC so long as the student had at least a PPL. The wording there looks like only the "sole manipulator" of the controls gets to log PIC. So if the instructor is "acting" as PIC, but the student is flying the plane, does the instructor log PIC, too? [/ QUOTE ]Yes. 61.51 is still the known universe. But my "Rule 1" doesn't include all of the logging rules that are in the regulation. (Rule 1 is actually one of a group of 5 which don't cover CFIs - FWIW, I pasted the whole group into the bottom of this message) CFIs are a special case. 61.51(e)(3) says: "An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor." So, the CFI's ability lo log PIC isn't dependent on acting as PIC (the CFI is not always PIC anyway) or manipulating anything, but merely because she is in the aircraft giving instruction. Here's "The Rules" ============================== Here's a simple version of the rules as they have been written in the FAR and repeatedly and consistently interpreted by the FAA Chief Counsel for at least 20 years. (I'm limiting it to student, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. CFIs and ATPs can fend for themselves. If they don't know the rules, tough.) Rule 1 If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. "Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions. Rule 2 If you are a student, recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the only person in the aircraft. This means that even without category and class ratings, you may log PIC time if you are solo. In addition to the obvious (student solo) it also means, for example, that if you are ASEL and solo in an AMEL or ASES, you may log the time as PIC. Rule 3 If you are a private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are acting as PIC* of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required. More than one pilot may be required because the aircraft is not certified for single-pilot operations. But more common for us, it covers simulated instrument flight where a second "safety pilot" is required by the regulations all the time that the "manipulator" is under the hood. If the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is acting as PIC, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC. Rule 4 Based on a unpublished 1977 Chief Counsel opinion (there is some reasonable disagreement on whether it's still any good), you may log PIC if you are acting as PIC* and you are the only person on board with the necessary aircraft ratings. This is the answer to the silly question: "Can I log PIC while I let my two year old fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can't imagine that the FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another. Rule 5 If you are a student, recreational, private, or commercial pilot and don't fit into Rules 1-4, you may not log the time as PIC even if you are acting as PIC. "Acting as PIC" assumes that you are qualified to act as PIC. That does* mean being current and having the appropriate endorsements in addition to ratings. Keep them straight Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper Different purposes, different concepts, different rules. ==============================

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