Making right traffic

[Jeffro]

I'm a new CFI and fairly low time pilot that had something come up the other day when flying with a student. I'm not sure if I did the correct thing. Here's the situation...we were practicing landings at an airport that is in class G (up to 700' AGL). The traffic pattern is left and the TPA is 1000' AGL. Some clouds at around 700-800' AGL had moved into the traffic pattern after our first landing. So, for the next several landings I had my student fly right traffic. I did this so we could still be above the airport at what I considered a safe altitude just in case we had any problems. Should I have flown left traffic instead below the clouds at 700-800'? Could I have been busted by Mr. FAA safety inspector for flying right traffic?

Thanks,

- Jeff

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Jeffro

Should I have flown left traffic instead below the clouds at 700-800'? Could I have been busted by Mr. FAA safety inspector for flying right traffic?

Flying right traffic is contrary to the regulations, unless right traffic is indicated by the segmented circle on the ground, so yes you could have been violated for that.

However, the traffic pattern altitude is not established by regulation, so you could have flown lower. If you fly too low, an inspector could always invoke 91.13, careless or reckless operation of an aircraft.

Still, many established traffic patterns are only 800 feet AGL, so it would be hard to argue that's unsafe.

[nosehair]

I agree. Flying a lower pattern altitude is perferable to flying a wrong-way pattern. If your airport has an instrument approach with circling minimums published, that is a pretty safe altitude to go with and not risk a careless/reckless violation, and is more acceptable to others in the pattern. Make an added announcement in your CTAF calls "...on a 600' downwind for ..."

[moxiepilot]

i would have ended the lesson after the first pattern had to deviate from what is prescribed.


$.02

[Nihon_Ni]

You have to be careful with a situation like this. What did your student really learn here? I'll betcha he learned that there are ways to "get around" regulations so you can get your lesson in/get home/etc. That's not what you had in mind, but this is how folks learn to scud run. He's already done it once and survived, next time it won't be so dramatic. A few times after that it will be a full-blown habit. How will you feel if you read a NTSB report a few years from now where this pilot was flying under the weather in class G (like his CFI inadvertently taught him to do) and had a fatal CFIT?

I suggest you have a chat with him about what you did, why you did it, what you learned and what you'd do differently next time. Student's don't expect us to be perfect, but they should expect us to learn from our mistakes and own up to them when we make them. After all, that's what the "Command" in PIC is all about.

This is already a lesson he will never forget, just make sure it's the one you intended.

Rob

[exleardriver]

i concur, fly the lower pattern altitude if able safely or not at all. and never bluff a student on a reg of which you aren't certain..surely enough they'll find clarification somewhere else and lose confidence in you. use the experience to emphasize that in actuality, it's difficult for even an instructor to always know what to do off the top of his head, and that's even more reason to adopt excellent study habits. i'm rarely 'impressed' by a student's - or any other degree of pilot for that matter - flying acumen..but i always respect and vocally acknowledge excellent aeronautical knowledge.

[BajtheJino]

It's been a long night and I'm too lazy to look it up-by flying right pattern what reg is being broken?

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

It's been a long night and I'm too lazy to look it up-by flying right pattern what reg is being broken?

91.126(b)(1) which is, I think on just about every private pilot knowledge test in some form.

==============================
Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in a Class G airspace area -

Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;
==============================

[Ian J]

Okay, now someone bring up the AF/D argument...

(and get ready for a smackdown! )

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Okay, now someone bring up the AF/D argument...

...which is??....?

[Ian J]

Just the last time this topic surfaced, the argument was made that some airports call for right traffic in the AF/D where there were no markings on the actual airport to indicate right traffic.

It came down to the FARs being regulatory, the AF/D isn't, so do what the FARs say.

[BobDDuck]

Let me preface this by saying I am ALL about teaching a student by the book and the legal way of doing something.

That said, I had an interesting conversation with the captain I am flying with this month. In the RJ, we often will make right traffic at controlled fields. Granted that is complying with tower's requests so we are covered, but it really is a 50-50 split.

Also, I always drilled into my students to fly a rectangular pattern. Downwind to base and base to final. Nice square turns. Again, in the jet it is VERY rare to fly a 90 degree turn on a visual approach. Normally, from the downwind it is a sweeping turn that joins the final just far enough out to get stabilized for the approach.

Just something interesting.

And yeah, I would just fly the pattern below the clouds in left traffic, as long as it is safe to do so.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

That said, I had an interesting conversation with the captain I am flying with this month. In the RJ, we often will make right traffic at controlled fields. Granted that is complying with tower's requests so we are covered, but it really is a 50-50 split.

I'm not sure what your point is. Doing what the controller instructs at a towered airport has nothing whatsoever to do with the rule when you are non-towered.

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

91.126(b)(1) which is, I think on just about every private pilot knowledge test in some form.

Thanks. It's been years since I've taken that exam.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

Thanks. It's been years since I've taken that exam.

Yeah but you never know. Alaska Airlines pilots were nailed twice by the FAA for violating the reg during flights into nontowered airports. Here's one of them:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3671.PDF

[athomeinthesky]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Just the last time this topic surfaced, the argument was made that some airports call for right traffic in the AF/D where there were no markings on the actual airport to indicate right traffic.

It came down to the FARs being regulatory, the AF/D isn't, so do what the FARs say.

So you should fly left pattern even if the AF/D indicates Right traffic?

[BajtheJino]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Yeah but you never know. Alaska Airlines pilots were nailed twice by the FAA for violating the reg during flights into nontowered airports. Here's one of them:

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3671.PDF

I'm glad the Fed's got those lawless punks!

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

I'm glad the Fed's got those lawless punks!

Maybe. Maybe not. The Feds also go after pilots for altitude busts, even if there isn't an actual loss of separation.

So what if there were a couple of light aircraft in the pattern, not using the radio, and in comes this large faster plane from a direction that is not expected that thinks because it's Part 121 or 135, it owns the airspace?

There are plenty arguably silly regs, but I don't have too much of a problem with most of the "rules of the road." It's not that there is something inherently unsafe about coming from the wrong direction or being at the wrong altitude or fly faster than 250 knots in certain areas. It's that predictability of others' actions helps mitigate some of th risks inherent in the activity.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by athomeinthesky

So you should fly left pattern even if the AF/D indicates Right traffic?

If the AFD or the Sectional indicates right traffic, personally I'd fly right traffic (although I'd listen real close to the folks that I hope are using radios). Besides, I can't see the markings too well from 5-10 miles out when I'm setting up for the entry.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

If the AFD or the Sectional indicates right traffic, personally I'd fly right traffic (although I'd listen real close to the folks that I hope are using radios). Besides, I can't see the markings too well from 5-10 miles out when I'm setting up for the entry.

yep. and keep in mind, folks, that your sectional is not 'current' without the accompanying current af/d. the af/d contains amendments in the back applicable to the sectional charts themselves (most often dealing with towers, etc.). you could theoretically have a situation where a pattern might be labeled 'right traffic' on the sectional, but amended to 'left traffic' in the back of the af/d for some reason. i think it highly improbable to occur, but just an example of how a current af/d is necessary to having a current sectional.

[Jeffro]

Thank you everyone for all the feedback. It looks like I really screwed up on this one! I will definitely have a talk with my student about what we should have done in this instance.

Thanks again,
- Jeff

[woutlaw]

Originally Posted by Jeffro

Thank you everyone for all the feedback. It looks like I really screwed up on this one! I will definitely have a talk with my student about what we should have done in this instance.

Thanks again,
- Jeff

Okay, maybe you screwed up a little, but that's not as important as what you did afterwards.

The fact that you recognized it, asked the question, got some good advice, learned from it and are willing to pass that along to your student is huge. Doing that goes a long way toward earning his respect.

Making mistakes and learning from them is part of instructing, that's why it's such a valuable experience. Lord knows I've made more than my fair share.

So, good job!

Will

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

yep. and keep in mind, folks, that your sectional is not 'current' without the accompanying current af/d. the af/d contains amendments in the back applicable to the sectional charts themselves (most often dealing with towers, etc.).

...and you AFD is not complete without the current NOTAMS.

[matt152]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Just the last time this topic surfaced, the argument was made that some airports call for right traffic in the AF/D where there were no markings on the actual airport to indicate right traffic.

It came down to the FARs being regulatory, the AF/D isn't, so do what the FARs say.

I would still planning on flying the right traffic pattern. FAR 91.103: Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

Although it does not specifically mention the AFD, you can hang your hat on it. Also, most airports with right patterns have "RP" on the sectional now.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

...and you AFD is not complete without the current NOTAMS.

and don't forget fellas, you'll get your class I notams from the briefing, but class II notam's will have to come on request!