Log Book Issues

[Beechlover]

Hi Folks,

Hope Everybody's Holiday Season is going great. I've been spending the last couple of days getting my collective stuff together to gear up for interviews and re-double-double checking my log book I've found some issues that I really just need to get some feedback on from folks that are smarter on this than me. Won't take much trust me. Ok here go's

- My entries while I was working toward my PPL (circa 1991 time frame)
I've discovered some discrepencies and I'm not sure how to deal with
them

Student Pilot
-- Missing Endorsements: - Pre-Solo Flight Training at Night,
- 2 Solo X-C Endorsements
- Aeronautical Knowledge Test
- Flight Proficiency/Practical Test Endorsemnt (the one that says your ready for the Practical Test!
yeah, not there

Basically kept my original logbook all these years so when I got back into training to finish my ratings, it never really seemed to be an issue except for a quick mention by my instructor that was all that was said. I do have all my ratings now up to CFI/II/MEI so NOW that I'm preparing for interviews I'm wondering if this will be any kind of issue.


Here's Another: How have you all logged your cross country time?

FAR 61.1 (3) makes the distinction between "landing at a point other than the point of departure" AND, "the point of landing being more than 50 NM from point of departure."

Soo.., This is how I've been told to handle that.., Log ALL flights to other airports as Cross Country, ALL of em.., BUT make a (pen)mark in the blocks of Cross Country flights that are more than 50 NM to distinguish them from the ones that are less than 50 in distance because these go toward Private/Commercial/Instrument rating Aeronautical experience requirements.

Just wondering how everybody else has been logging these.

Finally.., After getting my PPL in the Tomahawk/Warrior, I got qualified in the Arrow PA-28R 200 (Single Eng 200HP/Complex) for those not familiar. The endorsement I was given was a "High Performance Endorsement." (Now adays this would require a "Complex Endorsement" and a High Perf only if the engine is GREATER than 200 HP which MY Arrow wasn't) This was back in 1991 so I think the regs were different then. Tried to research this on the FAA web sight looking for Archived FARs (1991) but no luck.

So my thinking is either I got the wrong endorsement, or a "High Perf" Endorsement applied to 200 HP engines AND meant "Complex" back in 1991?

In any case when I get to the interview I just really wanna be prepared with something to address the missing endorsements. Appreciate any feedback, Thanks everybody have a great New Years!

[exleardriver]

61.31(e)(2)...you're 'grandfathered' into a complex endorsement by virtue of your high-performance endorsement, as it was prior to 8/4/97.

[exleardriver]

yeah, 61.1(b)(3) explains the x-country logging requirements. you're correct. one is to meet certain aeronautical experience requirements, once those are completed, landings at an airport other than the original departure point using either dead reckoning or radio navigation, or 'other' (e.g. loran, gps, fms) may be logged as such. i never marked mine as you described in my logbooks i flew part 135 for four different companies over the years..think they were just have a warm body, brave soul..

[mojo6911]

The missing endorsements should have been caught by your CFI and your DE when you took the checkride. You aren't on the hook for those.

[moxiepilot]

i have 2 x-c columns: 135 xc (point to point) and experience x-c (50+ nm)

[RPJ]

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

i have 2 x-c columns: 135 xc (point to point) and experience x-c (50+ nm)

What brand of logbook is this?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Beechlover

In any case when I get to the interview I just really wanna be prepared with something to address the missing endorsements.

I have a hard time believing that anyone interviewing you will know what the proper endorsements are or could care less if they did.

[Cessnaflyer]

Originally Posted by RPJ

What brand of logbook is this?

I'm guessing it is his own homemade logbook or he is using one of the empty columns to make his own title for it.

[Beechlover]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

61.31(e)(2)...you're 'grandfathered' into a complex endorsement by virtue of your high-performance endorsement, as it was prior to 8/4/97.

Thankyou so much for pointing that out, I would have NEVER found that! Whew!

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I have a hard time believing that anyone interviewing you will know what the proper endorsements are or could care less if they did.

four different part 135 operators hired me. to be frank, i don't recall much about a single one spending a second if that going through my own logbook. again, if it's part 135 you seek, they like warm bodies, brave souls..

part 121? someone else will have to chime in..

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by Beechlover

Thankyou so much for pointing that out, I would have NEVER found that! Whew!

you bet! happy 'complex' new year..

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by Cessnaflyer

I'm guessing it is his own homemade logbook or he is using one of the empty columns to make his own title for it.

empty column. since I don't have my atp, I still keep track of the 50+, but since I am always looking for a 135 gig, I want to have a column for point to point as well

[Vyse]

In my paper logbook I log just xc > 50 miles, to keep it consistent.

In Logbook Pro (or you can use any equivalent) I created a separate column for point-to-point xc.

[SpiraMirabilis]

ASA and gleim logbooks has 2 XC columns. One for all XC and one for XC over 50nm.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

ASA and gleim logbooks has 2 XC columns. One for all XC and one for XC over 50nm.

ASA does? Let me relook the larger book, for the ASA-SP-30 only has one cross country column.

My electronic Safelog logs the over 50nm xc.

Someone will have to help me here, for now I'm confused. How do you log an xc if it's NOT over 50nm? Could you also explain the logic behind doing so if it's > 50 nm?

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

Someone will have to help me here, for now I'm confused. How do you log an xc if it's NOT over 50nm? Could you also explain the logic behind doing so if it's > 50 nm?

61.1(b)(3) contains three definitions of cross country time depending on the its purpose that the time is being used for. Looking at them should answer your question, but in order to count toward the cross country requirements for all FAA pilot certificates and ratings, except the ATP certificate, the cross country must include a landing >50 nm from where you started to count. (You don't have to land to count it toward ATP cross country requirements)

Other than that, the definition of a cross country is a flight in which you land somewhere other than where you started and navigated to get there. There is no distance requirement. While they don't count toward any FAA certificates or ratings, these cross countries do count for other things - Part 135 cross country requirements for example, which is why people try to count them.

Keeping them separate from each other is just good bookkeeping.

[MFT1Air]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

61.1(b)(3) contains three definitions of cross country time depending on the its purpose that the time is being used for. Looking at them should answer your question, but in order to count toward the cross country requirements for all FAA pilot certificates and ratings, except the ATP certificate, the cross country must include a landing >50 nm from where you started to count. (You don't have to land to count it toward ATP cross country requirements)

Other than that, the definition of a cross country is a flight in which you land somewhere other than where you started and navigated to get there. There is no distance requirement. While they don't count toward any FAA certificates or ratings, these cross countries do count for other things - Part 135 cross country requirements for example, which is why people try to count them.

Keeping them separate from each other is just good bookkeeping.

I still need to ask the astronaut commanders and pilots how they log shuttle hours when they "liftoff" and land in Florida. Between the pad and the runway, it's less than 50nm. . . not that they care.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by MFT1Air

I still need to ask the astronaut commanders and pilots how they log shuttle hours when they "liftoff" and land in Florida. Between the pad and the runway, it's less than 50nm. . . not that they care.

They takeoff at one place and land at another using pilotage, ded reckoning or radio nav....sounds like xc to me. I just want to know how they log Multi-engine time going up and glider time coming down.

..do you s'pose they have to report canceling IFR passing FL600?

-mini

[MFT1Air]

I'll ask them. . .guaranteed.

[mastermags]

Originally Posted by RPJ

What brand of logbook is this?

I have a Gleim logbook with a distinction for these columns.

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by minitour

They takeoff at one place and land at another using pilotage, ded reckoning or radio nav....sounds like xc to me. I just want to know how they log Multi-engine time going up and glider time coming down.

..do you s'pose they have to report canceling IFR passing FL600?

-mini

Still Class E, right? I wonder when they cancel it.

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by minitour

They takeoff at one place and land at another using pilotage, ded reckoning or radio nav....sounds like xc to me. I just want to know how they log Multi-engine time going up and glider time coming down.

..do you s'pose they have to report canceling IFR passing FL600?

-mini

funny, i have asked students if they need a transponder. gets them thinking about airspace...

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by Beechlover

- Pre-Solo Flight Training at Night,

You don't ever need any student endorsements once you have obtained your private certificate. But I'm curious, did you do your first solo at night?

[USMC-SGT]

When I interviewed the only person who looked at my logbook was a very new FO and I have no idea what he was even looking for, actually I dont think he had any idea what he was looking for.

He just kind of thumbed through the pages, said "cool you flew an extra" and gave it back.

Id say at the regional level the disrepencies you found would NEVER be found and if for some crazy reason they were they would not care as long as your pria showed that your ratings actually existed and your TT is what you said it was. They only have a few minutes to scan the book, its not an audit.

[Nihon_Ni]

Here's a paragraph from The Killing Zone that you may find of interest:

"You must be careful to get the correct endorsements after receiving your flight training in these advanced airplanes. I witnessed a very unhappy site when a commercial pilot flew across the state to take the flight instructor practical test with an FAA inspector. First on the agenda was to check the applicant's documents and endorsements. Sure enough, he had the wrong one. He had flown to the checkride in an airplane he was not endorsed to fly. Needless to say, he did not get his flight instructor certificate that day and had to retake his commercial checkride later." (p. 266)

Here's my take on your missing endorsements:

• Pre-Solo Flight Training at Night: Did you ever do solo night flying? If not, you don't need it. (I don't normally give this endorsement)
• Aeronautical Knowledge Test: Not required to be in your logbook. If you take a course from King or Sporty's they mail you a certificate and an endorsement. You had to produce an endorsement to take the written test so you must have had one. My instructor signed the endorsement in the back of my Gleim book, and I threw it away after I had my PPL.

• 2 Solo X-C Endorsements: Required to be in your logbook. [61.89(c)]
• Practical Test Endorsement: Required to be in your logbook [61.103(d)] (BTW, I find it hard to believe the examiner never checked for this endorsement. It's normally the second thing they ask to for -- the first being their check.)

If the FAA ever dug into your logbook, they'd have good reason to revoke your certificates since the required endorsements are not there. Their case would be something like: Since you can't prove you were ever authorized to make 2 solo cross-country flights, you have not completed the training required for the PPL. All your other ratings are predicated on having a PPL. I think you'd have a tough time proving you should keep your certificates -- the regs are black and white and private pilots are required to read, speak, write and understand English.

Now, I doubt you'll have trouble in an interview, but if I was in your shoes I'd try to get this cleared up pronto. Can you reach your old CFI? If so, have him sign your old logbook with the proper endorsements with the date when he should have done it.

As a last resort you could always loose your logbook. I have all my flights recorded in an electronic log, but not the endorsements. If I ever lost my book I'd only be able to reconstruct the flights but not the endorsements. My argument would be that at one point I presented my logbook & required endorsements to a duly appointed representative of the FAA for inspection, who reviewed them and issued me a certificate that required those endorsements. My flight time has been reported to the FAA on every 8710 I have submitted, and that can be used as a basis to reconstruct my logbook.

Even so, electronic logbooks are accepted today on par with paper ones, so you may just transfer you flights from paper to electrons and "dispose" of the paper book.