Aspen?

[ERAU_Intern]

Anyone flown into Aspen, CO? I need to build a few hours of multi-engine PIC for my MEI. So myself and a friend decided that it would be a real kick, not to mention GREAT experience to take a Turbo Seminole into Aspen. I realize its a challenging approach with a "Sporty" MAP. I just want an little insight from anyone who has been there.

[Jason]

Eeek - I cringe every time I hear the word 'Aspen' - definatley on my "Been there(many times), done that, never want to do it again" list!

Since you've never been there and you're going in an airplane with less than spectacular performance I would strongly recommend you observe the following: Day ONLY, GOOD VFR ONLY, spend some serious time before you go looking at the charts and planning your 'escape' if you need one, and if you lose an engine either land at ASE or go down the valley to (I can't remember the airport's name - Rifle maybe?) don't try and out climb the mountains on one engine. And watch the weather closely before you go and check it enroute - it has a tendency to change rather rapidly.

Jason

[ERAU_Intern]

Thanks Jason. Yeah, I know its pretty rough goin in there at times. But you cant get experience just sitting on your tail ya know? No way to do it but to do it! I will be sure and check and re-check the weather and only go if its "significantly" above Min's.

[ready2fly]

LOL, Jason. WHy do I get a mental image of someone waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat screaming "ASPEN!!... Whew!"

Have a bad experience there, didja??

[MidlifeFlyer]

Are you talking doing the instrument approach or going VFR? I've been into Aspen several times, but all VFR (not even a practice approach) and all in singles.

The biggest issue is the need for a steep slope once in position to land, so in a turbo of any kind, engine management is a major skill.

The most common VFR approach in is a modified version of the Roaring Fork Visual. Here's a video of the final segment (although a bit lower) flown in a 182 (sorry for the pop-ups. it's not my regular site)

http://midlifeflight.tripod.com/video/index.htm

[ERAU_Intern]

Wow, thanks Midlife!! Breathtaking footage!! Now I am going for sure. Yeah, this Turbo Seminole doesnt require quite the descent planning that some other turbo aircraft do. It has small engines, and relatively low boost, so as long as you are slow and gentle with throttle changes, things usually work out.

[Jason]

Yeah but that's the problem - Aspen isn't a 'slow and gentle' power adjustment airport!! Until you get there you won't truly appreciate how close that hill is to the end of the runway - you clear the hill and it's chop and drop and pray you make the runway or go overhead and circle. I've done it both ways in a Challenger going 140 knots - both ways suck in their own way. There is room to circle - and by circle I mean overfly the rwy and make a hard 180 degree turn to join the downwind - especially in a Seminole but you still need to be ##### hot on top of things.

R2F - Bad experience??? Hmmm - not really bad per se but I've been there enough to appreciate how dangerous it can be - everybody involved needs to be heads up - pilots, controllers, everybody. It's one way in and one way out and I've been there on more than one occasion when traffic has been flowing in both directions at the same time.

Jason

[MidlifeFlyer]

Jason's ring about "chop and drop". There are advantages to little airplanes.

ERAU, I see you are in AZ, so you may have some mountain experience. If not, don't do it without a mountain-qualified CFI. Turbos help, but aren't a panacea. And since part of the purpose is building multi time, you may want to try multiple airports, moving from the "easy" to the difficult.

When we do a mountain checkout starting in the Denver area, we typically hit 4 airports to teach and demonstrate a series of skills.

[MikeD]

Intern,

You want an approach with a "sporty" MAP, check out the plates for Cape Romanzof AFS, Cape Newenham AFS, and Cape Lisburne AFS in Alaska. I'll see if I can post them.

BL is, any approach plate with the notes (NDBs):

Decend to MDA upon completion of procedure turn and perform contact or missed approach

Cape Newenham has a 3,950 x 150 runway with a 8% slope. One end elevation is 230', the other end is 541'.

CAUTION: RWY located on slope of 2305' mountain. Approach from NW only, land RW 14 only. High terrain both sides and S of RWY. Successful go-around improbable. Night operations not authorized.

Now there's and IAP.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I am going for sure...this Turbo Seminole doesn't require quite the descent planning that some other turbo aircraft do...things usually work out.

[/ QUOTE ]

"things USUALLY work out?" Yikes!!!!

I have to go with Jason on this one ERAU. It's not only the plane that takes planning, it's the airport itself. And getting in is the easy part. You need several VFR alternates because the wx (especially the season we are entering) changes every :05 minutes. Being slow or gentle is fine if you are the only one in the sky, but you will NOT be alone up there, and the guys behind you are flying approaches above your cruise speed. Most of our descents on the last segment are flight idle, gear down, and speed brakes. While at the same time the tower is launching opposite direction departures. So don't plan on S turns to lose altitude. Then through in that when you cross the last BIG mountain, you can hardly see the airport.

On departure you can hang up the required climb gradient. Most jets have problems even making the IFR climb gradient out of there. You do a lot of praying from brake release to 16,000'

As someone else mentioned. Take someone with you that has been there. Preferably in the same type aircraft. It is not a sightseeing airport. The only places to sightsee are from 16,000' or while parked on the ramp. Not on arrival/departure.

Man Jason, you start sweating just talking about going back there!

Be safe. Good luck.

[ERAU_Intern]

Thanks for all the great insight and advice folks! I can see that this is going to require just the ammount of planning and care that I expected. The climb gradiant by the way is a Min. of 460' per nautical mile to 14,000'. Sure, thats nothing to thumb one's nose at, but certainly not out of the question I'll wager.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[ QUOTE ]
The climb gradient by the way is a Min. of 460' per nautical mile to 14,000'. Sure, thats nothing to thumb one's nose at, but certainly not out of the question I'll wager.

[/ QUOTE ]Curious. What does that come out to for required climb performance at your typical climb airspeeds? How does that compare with the climb performance numbers in your airplane at those altitudes?

[Jason]

Not out of the question?? It's been a while since I've flown a Seminole and it wasn't a turbo but isn't best climb speed single engine around 85 knots? Yeah 2 engines is no problem but if you pop one right after liftoff you're looking at a MINIMUM climb rate of around 650 fpm at 460' per nautical mile to clear the 'hills'!! ASE is a fairly high airport - look at your performance charts and see what weight you'd have to take off at to meet that gradient requirement.

Jason

[ERAU_Intern]

Midlife, at 8000ft. and slightly higher than standard temperature, the airplane will manage between 1,300 and 1,500 fpm for our estimated weight. And Jason, you are correct sir, if we lost an engine up there just after departure, at 88 knots we would be looking at about a 300fpm rate of climb.

[Jason]

Now that you know about all of the negatives I'll tell you about the positives - it is challenging(and I think pilots by nature like challenges) and it's some of the most beautiful scenary you'll ever see so be careful and have fun - I guarantee you'll remember the trip for years to come!

Jason

[ERAU_Intern]

Good deal. Yeah, im looking forward to it. And dont worry about all the negatives, thats why I asked. A smart low-time pilot will draw all he/she can from the knowledge and experience of their more seasoned counter-parts. Thanks again.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
The climb gradient by the way is a Min. of 460' per nautical mile to 14,000'

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually that's the climb rate req'd. The climb gradient is 7.6% (460/6000=7.6)

[ QUOTE ]
at 8000ft. and slightly higher than standard temperature, the airplane will manage between 1,300 and 1,500 fpm for our estimated weight....at 88 knots we would be looking at about a 300fpm rate of climb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Error 1: You figured your climb req'd from the surface. You need to check your climb at the top of the climb (14000'), not the bottom.
Error 2: 300 fpm at 88 kts means you are climbing 300' in 1.4 nm. 460ft/nm is required. You just impacted 112 feet below the first peak.

If you are only climbing 300 fpm (SE) at 8000ft, I would bet at 14000' you will be descending at a pretty good rate.

Told you there was a lot envolved

[NJA_Capt]

PS....
Figure your Single Engine service ceiling for a given temperature. Don't forget to use std lapse rate to figure the temp at 14,000' We use 1/2 std lapse of 1 degree to be more conservative.

Good luck again, and pick a COOL day

[ERAU_Intern]

WOAH!! Woah hoss! First of all, if we lose an engine on departure, we arent climbing to 14000! We are headed back to the airport after declaration of an emergency. So there was no error. Second of all, I understand the service ceiling and temperature tie in. But um, its November. Dont think there is gonna be a problem. I understand that you have some opinions about how things are to be done. But there is a better way to convey them. That is, without telling someone they are in error.

[NJA_Capt]

[ QUOTE ]
Woah hoss! if we lose an engine on departure, we aren't climbing to 14000! We are headed back to the airport after declaration of an emergency. So there was no error. Second of all, I understand the service ceiling and temperature tie in...there is a better way to convey them... without telling someone they are in error.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across like I was shaking my finger at you. I really wasn't. I thought about apologizing for using the word error, but, after rereading the posts, I don't think that was the wrong term. Keep in mind from our perspectives there is NEVER a turn and return. Once those brakes are released, we are committed to the FULL departure.

Not going all the way to 14K? Fine, figure the climb rate for pattern altitude, not field elevation, THAT was the error.

Understanding service ceiling is not what I was pointing out. I was trying to give you a short cut. Instead of looking at climb rates at field elev and top of climb, you look at the SE service ceiling. If you can't maintain your desired climb altitude, you know you sure can't climb to that altitude.

A 300 fpm climb is only going to put you into someone's den window (you'll see what I mean when you get there), it doesn't matter if you try left or right traffic.

Consider that Jason and I fly out of there in jets that climb 6000fpm on two engines and better than 1500-2000fpm on one engine and it still makes us sit up and take notice. It really is pretty there in the winter though.

[RiddlePilot]

Well hey, I guess it's "gang up on ERAU_Intern" day.

I'm the friend that's going up with him on the flight to Aspen, so I'd like to say a few words about the aircraft itself. On a relatively cold day (like it is right now at Aspen), the plane will leave the runway with a 6000 DA at roughly 1500 fpm. Once it's cleaned up and in a cruise climb of 110 KIAS, it'll get on up at around 1300 to around 11000 before slowly dropping off. So, the climb gradient out of ASE is not going to be a problem...we've already figured that we'll be well above the 460'/nm requirement.

Single engine performance, while not exactly spectacular, is still enough to keep us alive. To be safe, we're not going to depart any less than the VOR approach minimums (plus a thousand foot buffer) in case of this sort of emergency. Even then, we'll have a good deal of altitude to play with before hitting the clouds, and with an SE climb of around 500-600 fpm at that altitude, ERAU_Intern and I are confident that we'll be able to get her turned around and back on the ground safely.

But seriously, the both of us do very much appreciate the insight from you guys with a lot of experience. Thanks.

[NJA_Capt]

Riddlepilot,
Thank you for a very well spoken response. It wasn't my intent to bash either of you guys. I have been damaged by many years of FSI and the "exploding dog" theory. We look at all bad things that could happen before the good.
We are the aviation version of borrowing your Dad's car for the first time.
"be careful with the brakes....
and don't burn my tires...
and look out for old ladies crossing the street....
don't tailgate...
scratch the paint and you won't drive until you 34.
Oh yea, have fun.
Chill out Dad, I'll be fine."

It sounds like you have done your planning. Go out and enjoy yourselves. Let us know how it goes.


Jason or anybody,
Can you remember the name of that little local restaurant just outside of town? Good BBQ etc? These guys need some good/economical food when they get there

[Jason]

Ya' know - as many times as I've been to ASE - which is probably at least a couple dozen over my career - it's always been a drop and go or a pick and go - I've never so much as had lunch there - how bad does that suck!?!? All the work and none of benefits

Jason

[RiddlePilot]

Well hey, we're back. Aspen was absolutely gorgeous this time of year. We were in and out of a scattered deck crossing through about 15000', then shot the Roaring Fork visual to runway 33. The clouds whizzing by along with the snow-capped scenery made for some great pictures.

[flyitup]

Sounds like an awesome trip!

Maybe you could post a few of the pics!