IFR into uncontrolled field

[aerospacepilot]

I am a fairly new IFR pilot, and all my training has been in busy class B terminal environment and mostly towered airports. I have a few questions about going IFR into an uncontrolled field when actual IFR exists.

1. How do you pick up your clearance, and how do you get an IFR release?
My guess is you call FSS on the phone, file IFR, and give an EDT. But once the engine is running, do you call FSS over the radio and get your release, or how does that work.

2. How are you suppose to cancel IFR when landing at an uncontrolled field?
Do you just give FSS a call once you have landed over the radio, or do you wait until you have stopped, secured the airplane, and then call them on the phone. At a towered airport, if you land IFR, do you have to cancel IFR or does the tower do it for you once you have safely landed.

Thanks. I am planning on doing some flying in actual IFR so I just wanted to make sure I have all the procedures down.

[BajtheJino]

So you're IR or not?
If you are and you didn't cover the subject matter during your training regardless of where you did your training I'd ask for a portion of my money back.
I know that I didn't answer any of your questions but I gotsta know first.

[aerospacepilot]

I got my IR in august and I have not flown since then because I have been busy with college. I know I have been taught that, I just forget, thus I am on here asking.

While I am at it, one more piece of information I forget (again, because I have NEVER had to use it).
If your IFR route takes you through an MOA, is it the controllers responsibility to keep you out of the MOA if it is hot. Or is it yours like when you are VFR.
Thanks.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by aerospacepilot

I got my IR in august and I have not flown since then because I have been busy with college. I know I have been taught that, I just forget, thus I am on here asking.

While I am at it, one more piece of information I forget (again, because I have NEVER had to use it).
If your IFR route takes you through an MOA, is it the controllers responsibility to keep you out of the MOA if it is hot. Or is it yours like when you are VFR.
Thanks.

atc will route you around moa's when necessary.

getting a clearance to depart an uncontrolled field: you might have an rco with a discrete frequency that you can use to contact atc on the radio or you'll have to phone flight service. you'll request your ifr clearance, they'll put you on hold and they will phone atc, get your clearance and relay it to you with a clearance void time. not off within 30 minutes? clearance void. call them, otherwise they'll start search and rescue.

arrival? you'll obtain the local weather from awos/asos while enroute..atc will ask if you 'have the weather' for the airport or they will say 'no landing information available for xyz airport', etc. they will clear you for the approach and at the appropriate time, they will tell you to change to the local advisory frequency, you will make your 'faf inbound' calls, etc. and if you arrive and it's 'vfr-ish', you could switch back to approach and quickly cancel ifr or cancel on the ground with flight service via phone.

yes, a towered-airport closes your ifr immediately upon landing or upon your asking them to 'cancel ifr; while inbound in vfr conditions....

[exleardriver]

departure: i'll add that i'm asuming that you need an ifr departure because of imc conditions. if the field is vfr, depart vfr and when able, switch over to local approach control or center and request your ifr clearance to...

[Swen]

Originally Posted by aerospacepilot

1. How do you pick up your clearance, and how do you get an IFR release?
My guess is you call FSS on the phone, file IFR, and give an EDT. But once the engine is running, do you call FSS over the radio and get your release, or how does that work.

Either call the FSS on a phone and get a clearance void time, or whatever its called.

Or call on the RCO (Remote Communications Outlet).

Or depart into VFR condition if permitting and open plan in the air.

Originally Posted by aerospacepilot

2. How are you suppose to cancel IFR when landing at an uncontrolled field?
Do you just give FSS a call once you have landed over the radio, or do you wait until you have stopped, secured the airplane, and then call them on the phone. At a towered airport, if you land IFR, do you have to cancel IFR or does the tower do it for you once you have safely landed.

You can do it using any of the above means, just somewhat backwards and ask to cancel.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Swen

Either call the FSS on a phone and get a clearance void time, or whatever its called.

Or call on the RCO (Remote Communications Outlet).

Or depart into VFR condition if permitting and open plan in the air.



You can do it using any of the above means, just somewhat backwards and ask to cancel.

Here's what we do at ace...

Let's say we're leaving dutch harbor IFR, and we have a flight plan on file.

We dial in Center

Center, ACEAir 65, on the ground in Dutch Harbor, 12whatever point whatever, IFR to anchorage/coldbay/whereever.

They give us the clearance, and rarely do they give us a void time

or...

Call up the FSS from the RCO,

Coldbay Radio, aceair 65, 122.6, on the ground dutch, request IFR to Anchorage/wherever

To which they usually reply:

Clearance on Request (while they look for the clearance)

Then we wait for them to get it, they give us the clearance, and we depart.

Personally, I like to deal with center more because you have to talk to fewer people.

A lot of times if the field is LIFR you'll get a question like this:

Can you maintain your own obstacle obstruction clearance through 12000, or whatever?

Answer yes, they give you your clearance (sometimes after a hold for release), and you blast out of there.

You'll only get a clearance void time if you get your clearance over the phone. Which I would recomend against anyway.

To cancel on landing, usually you'll get something like" "cleared GPS-C approach into the anywhere airport, maintain 4000 till established on a published segment of the approach, change to advisory frequency approved, report down this frequency, or report down with whereever radio." Then when you pull off the runway, you call up and say "center, N1234A is down and clear at anywhere"

[taseal]

Originally Posted by ppragman

A lot of times if the field is LIFR you'll get a question like this:

Can you maintain your own obstacle obstruction clearance through 12000, or whatever?

just like that?



you're cleared to 4,000 or whatever

just messing with ya, but it sure as hell woudl be funny!

can ya maintain VMC or whatever?

[JEP]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

So you're IR or not?
If you are and you didn't cover the subject matter during your training regardless of where you did your training I'd ask for a portion of my money back.
I know that I didn't answer any of your questions but I gotsta know first.

So we can assume that you know absolutely everything about every single rating you have? And never once had a question?

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by JEP

So we can assume that you know absolutely everything about every single rating you have? And never once had a question?

I think the wording was stronger than needed but I think he has a point. This isn't some discrete issue that might come up once or twice in a lifetime. It's is a general topic that covers the majority of airports in the US (at least I'm pretty sure there are more non-towered airports than towered ones). It really should have been covered.

As Swen indicated, there are a variety.

Some will have a CD frequency or RCO to Center or a special telephone number. If so the information will be in the A/FD. If there is a dedicated CD frequency available, it will also be on the on approach charts. There are also times when, even though there's no information saying so, you can reach a nearby ATC facility, such as where a small non-towered airport is near a Class B or C primary.

Failing that, you can have clearances relayed via FSS (I think there's now a dedicated number for that) and get a void time clearance (read the AIM).

Sometimes there's a combination - at LBL, I've had the experience of talking to Center on the radio from the ground and receiving a void time.

You can also activate your IFR in the air after takeoff, but that's pretty limited to VFR conditions.

[taseal]

Originally Posted by JEP

So we can assume that you know absolutely everything about every single rating you have? And never once had a question?

its not like that

its like being private rated, but not knowing how to operate in and out of uncontrolled airfields

[aerospacepilot]

So let me clarify to make sure I understand:

1. When leaving an uncontrolled field, IFR, in IMC (ie, can't depart VFR and pick up clearance in the air), you can either:
a. Call FSS over the phone, get a clearance with a void time
b. Call someone over the radio, get a hold for IFR release, and then get a clearance to depart IFR (like at a towered airport, just calling someone else over the radio).

Here are my questions.
Say I call over the phone and get a clearance void time in 20 minutes. So I startup, taxi out, do my run up, then I can just leave whenever I want as long as it is before the clearance void time??

If I chose to call over the radio from the ground, do I call FSS, or center or approach (depending upon who controls the airspace above)??


2. Ok, when arriving IFR, you can either switch to advisories, then if you are able to arrive VFR, you can call back to approach and tell them you want to cancel IFR. If you have to land IFR, you call FSS over the phone once you are on the ground.
Can you call FSS over the radio and tell them to cancel IFR? That seems like the more prudent thing to do, incase someone else is waiting to get in IFR.


3. Finally, a towered airport will close your IFR flight plan when you land safe. Do they close it when you land in VFR conditions, or must you tell them to cancel IFR if VFR conditions exist?
Thanks.

[MidlifeFlyer]

[quote=aerospacepilot;757486]

Say I call over the phone and get a clearance void time in 20 minutes. So I startup, taxi out, do my run up, then I can just leave whenever I want as long as it is before the clearance void time??

Yep. The clearance you will receive will end with (AIM 5-2-6):
==============================
Clearance void if not off by (clearance void time) and, if required, if not off by (clearance void time) advise (facility) not later than (time) of intentions.
==============================

If I chose to call over the radio from the ground, do I call FSS, or center or approach (depending upon who controls the airspace above)??

It depends on where you are. FSS doesn't really control any airspace - all it does is relay information back and forth between ATC and you. The only thing you would be doing with them on the radio is the same thing you'd do over the telephone.

Unfortunately, even the AFD isn't always helpful on who to call. For example, the only thing in the ADF for communications at KLBL (Liberal, KS) is:

COMMUNICATIONS: CTAF/UNICOM 122.8
WICHITA FSS (ICT) TF 1–800–WX–BRIEF. NOTAM FILE LBL.
RCO 122.4 (WICHITA FSS)
KANSAS CITY CENTER APP/DEP CON 134.0

There's nothing to tell you that SOP for IFR out of Liberal is to radio Center when on the ground for your clearance. Not knowing, what I did was what I was originally taught (I did my IR training at a non-towered field) - call FSS. FSS told me that I can contact Center by radio on the ground for my clearance. Faced with the same situation (and no one local to ask), I might try to reach a Center or Approach facility before trying FSS, but that would depend on where I was.

2. Ok, when arriving IFR, you can either switch to advisories, then if you are able to arrive VFR, you can call back to approach and tell them you want to cancel IFR. If you have to land IFR, you call FSS over the phone once you are on the ground.
Can you call FSS over the radio and tell them to cancel IFR? That seems like the more prudent thing to do, incase someone else is waiting to get in IFR.

You can cancel with whomever you can reach. If you have VFR cloud, visibility, and ceiling requirements met and can still reach ATC on the radio, by all means cancel with them. Just be aware that once canceling, you also have lost the protection of missed approach airspace.

FSS is FSS and you can close both IFR and VFR flight plans over the radio or by telephone.

3. Finally, a towered airport will close your IFR flight plan when you land safe. Do they close it when you land in VFR conditions, or must you tell them to cancel IFR if VFR conditions exist?

You need to do the closing. Never mind that ATC doesn't necessarily know what the real weather is at your destination (I've been cleared for the visual while in a solid overcast). You are typically below radar coverage so regardless of weather, they have no idea whether you are down and safe or not

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by aerospacepilot

3. Finally, a towered airport will close your IFR flight plan when you land safe. Do they close it when you land in VFR conditions, or must you tell them to cancel IFR if VFR conditions exist?
Thanks.

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

You need to do the closing. Never mind that ATC doesn't necessarily know what the real weather is at your destination (I've been cleared for the visual while in a solid overcast). You are typically below radar coverage so regardless of weather, they have no idea whether you are down and safe or not

Oops. Better read the question again Mark - "towered airport".

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Oops. Better read the question again Mark - "towered airport".

Hmm. Since all of the other questions (and the topic) dealt with nontowered airports, I guess one of us made a mistake.

I'd be =really= surprised if someone who did most of his training at towered fields asked that question.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Hmm. Since all of the other questions (and the topic) dealt with nontowered airports, I guess one of us made a mistake.

I'd be =really= surprised if someone who did most of his training at towered fields asked that question.

Ah.....upon further review; concur!


Context can clarify ambiguity!

[nosehair]

FYI, I have had flight instructors - instrument flight instructors - who did all of their training from a towered airport, and who never made a landing at a non-towered airport, who came to instruct at our school, which is a non-towered airport, and they were totally lost. They were unable to adapt to a style of flying which required self decisions in the pattern.

It shows how much it is important to have experience in all areas of operation. After these observations, I see it should be an FAR requirement: At least 3 pattern entries and landings at a non-towered airport. Same for IFR: at least 1 IFR departure with a telephone clearance with a void time, and at least 1 IFR approach & landing where the pilot has to close the flight plan.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by nosehair

FYI, I have had flight instructors - instrument flight instructors - who did all of their training from a towered airport, and who never made a landing at a non-towered airport, who came to instruct at our school, which is a non-towered airport, and they were totally lost. They were unable to adapt to a style of flying which required self decisions in the pattern.

It shows how much it is important to have experience in all areas of operation. After these observations, I see it should be an FAR requirement: At least 3 pattern entries and landings at a non-towered airport. Same for IFR: at least 1 IFR departure with a telephone clearance with a void time, and at least 1 IFR approach & landing where the pilot has to close the flight plan.

excellent points. biggest thing i see on ipc's...and you just know you're being handed a 'mess' is the lack of overall ifr knowledge. they can't recall when an alternate is required, lack understanding of that the selected alternate is based upon the specific approach of intent, not the airport in general'..or how to determine when an approach is not authorized, their non-standard alternate min's determinations..how to find and apply them, their take-off min's..odp's? what? cannot tell you the requirements to go below da/mda..you have to re-teach the difference between flight and reported visibility, what to do if they lose comm, vague recollection of the vor receiver checks, knowledge of and applicability of the various ifr clearances..they rarely recognize a checklist..stare at it like a new mole on their skin.

basically, they come in unprepared, hoping for a generous 'spoon-feed'. just expect you to 'remind them' of the pesky details they've forgotten, hoping to jump in an airplane, 'center some needles' and be done. legal. their in-flight situational awareness is often the pits..don't do a flight instrument check before take-off..can't give you an answer within a few seconds in flight of whether or not all flight instrument systems are working (i teach the inverted-v check)..i guess these folks just fly with 'faith'.. and they expect a single flight and a sign-off. they seem stunned when after 'the ipc', 'the next ground session and flight scheduling' gets discussed..'when can you come back..?' some come back..those who want to be proficient..others go elsewhere. those just looking to get quickly 'legal'. these are the guys i hate to know are flying in 'our system'..

i'm sure we can relate to having instrument students who make many ipc candidates (not all, mind you) look like they're 'all thumbs'..

'can i hear a witness..'

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by nosehair

It shows how much it is important to have experience in all areas of operation. After these observations, I see it should be an FAR requirement: At least 3 pattern entries and landings at a non-towered airport. Same for IFR: at least 1 IFR departure with a telephone clearance with a void time, and at least 1 IFR approach & landing where the pilot has to close the flight plan.

That's not a bad idea. I'm not sure that it needs to be so specific, but a requirement for approaches and departures from both towered and nontowered fields would be a pretty decent concept. It should probably be in the private pilot requirements also. Those require towered on the assumption that it's somehow "harder" to go in and out of them. But I know a number of pilots who, having trained at a Class D are very nervous at the prospect of self reporting and having no extra eyes at non-towered airports.

[ClearedToThe]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

excellent points. biggest thing i see on ipc's...and you just know you're being handed a 'mess' is the lack of overall ifr knowledge. they can't recall when an alternate is required, lack understanding of that the selected alternate is based upon the specific approach of intent, not the airport in general'..or how to determine when an approach is not authorized, their non-standard alternate min's determinations..how to find and apply them, their take-off min's..odp's? what? cannot tell you the requirements to go below da/mda..you have to re-teach the difference between flight and reported visibility, what to do if they lose comm, vague recollection of the vor receiver checks, knowledge of and applicability of the various ifr clearances..they rarely recognize a checklist..stare at it like a new mole on their skin.

basically, they come in unprepared, hoping for a generous 'spoon-feed'. just expect you to 'remind them' of the pesky details they've forgotten, hoping to jump in an airplane, 'center some needles' and be done. legal. their in-flight situational awareness is often the pits..don't do a flight instrument check before take-off..can't give you an answer within a few seconds in flight of whether or not all flight instrument systems are working (i teach the inverted-v check)..i guess these folks just fly with 'faith'.. and they expect a single flight and a sign-off. they seem stunned when after 'the ipc', 'the next ground session and flight scheduling' gets discussed..'when can you come back..?' some come back..those who want to be proficient..others go elsewhere. those just looking to get quickly 'legal'. these are the guys i hate to know are flying in 'our system'..

i'm sure we can relate to having instrument students who make many ipc candidates (not all, mind you) look like they're 'all thumbs'..

'can i hear a witness..'

Seen all the above.

It's one thing to come to an IPC slighty or grossly underprepared but have a willingness to learn and be a safer and more competent instrument pilot. It is an entirely other thing to come to an IPC just wanting "the signoff" without regard for *actually* knowing how to operate or fly in the atc system.


I started one guy's IPC in his airplane and he was shocked when I told him that he couldn't use his autopilot for all the approaches...and said "oh your gonna be one of THOSE instructors..." I quickly leared *why* he was using the autopilot for all his approaches. Yep, you guessed it. Could barely do a level turn without losing 300ft of altitude. Ground knowledge was extremely weak as he couldn't even list the types of hold entries. Another thing I've noticed from fellow CFI-I's is that most forget that the specific requirements for an IPC are explicitly listed in the Instrument PTS and instead just do "whatever they feel like" for an IPC...

Needless to say the guy never called me back to schedule the further required training...

In the words of Mick Jagger "I said, hey! you! get off of my cloud"

[Nihon_Ni]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

'can i hear a witness..'

Amen, brother! Preach it!!

[MFT1Air]

First and foremost, I agree with all you've mentioned about "losing that knowledge base" when coming to an IPC. You hear all the time that the FAA minimums are nearly enough to be proficient with your IFR ticket. Now, my question. . .

Why? Might it be because of not practicing those techniques? Limited flying hours while in IMC?

My second question with regard to the autopilot. Might 121 guys also lose that skill as well performing coordinated turns if they lack that practice as well although if so, I'm fairly confident they're more eager to learn than the typical GA pilot?

[tbmpilot]

Try to have the phone number for the controlling Center/Departure control before-hand, and have your cell. It's much easier to call them from the run-up ready to go. At some fields, you can't reach anyone on the radio until airborne.

Use caution departing a field at night VFR to pickup an IFR clearance in the air, unless you're very sure of terrain. If you do, follow the instrument departure on the chart. Many pilots have come to naught this way, especially if trying to manuever around Bravo airspace while waiting for a clearance.

If you can safely cancel IFR before you land, it's much easier...

[cfii2007]

I would avoid cancelling IFR until the approach is complete, and I am on the ground.

In terms of picking up your clearance, it can be done in the air, assuming you can maintain VFR. Obtaining a void time on the phone might be the easiest way.

[ctab5060X]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

I would avoid cancelling IFR until the approach is complete, and I am on the ground.

I can understand this if you are the only one in the air, but what if it is 1500 OVC and you are flying the approach in a 152 with a freighter, or regional also trying to get in. Are you going to clog the system or be nice and cancel to allow them to start the approach?

Just food for thought...