Filing for acual IMC training

[nocturnalaviator]

This may be a stupid question for some but I live in the Philly area and am CFII. I was wondering how you would go about filing to execute multiple practice approaches. I have been instructing outside of the clouds and for good reason. The students I get are ATP applicants and I don't feel comfortable flying in actual due to the fact that I don't have time to get comfortable with how they fly. The DPE told me to stay safe and out of the clouds with ATP apps. I have a student that is about to start IFR training and would like a heads up on how to give him some actual IFR practice in the local area. I read about filing to a VOR and placing the airport for both DEP and ARR, then requesting your approaches and getting vectors. Is this the best way? Should I call philly approach on this?

[BuickCFI]

around here for "local IFR" we file a vor radial and dme. we don't put in the remarks that we want practice approaches because the controllers know we do, but i would put in the remarks practice approaches if i was anywhere else

i.e. flight plan would look like this:
departure: kgfk
route: gfk300015
destination: kgfk
time enroute : 0020

[BajtheJino]

Yep, just file your route to a local NAV or fix or airport where you might do an approach with your departure/destination as your home airport. In the remarks section put "Multiple IFR approaches or IFR Training Flight" in there. That should be good to go. When you pick up your clearance the guy/gal might ask you what your initial approach request might be and go from there. No worries.
On the other hand...Your a CFII-go get your head in the clouds!

[nocturnalaviator]

Thanks! That sums it up pretty well. As far as getting my head in the clouds I train in light twins and doing engine out proc and engine out approaches while in IMC and trying to teach the DPE advised to stay away from that environment due to the distractions of the student's mistakes and ATC. What are your opinions on that issue? Also if I needed to do VFR maneuvers such as Vmc demo, stalls, steep turns etc.. could I request VFR on top say tops are at 4,000 and then get a pop up clearance back into the dest. airport?

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by nocturnalaviator

Thanks! That sums it up pretty well. As far as getting my head in the clouds I train in light twins and doing engine out proc and engine out approaches while in IMC and trying to teach the DPE advised to stay away from that environment due to the distractions of the student's mistakes and ATC. What are your opinions on that issue? Also if I needed to do VFR maneuvers such as Vmc demo, stalls, steep turns etc.. could I request VFR on top say tops are at 4,000 and then get a pop up clearance back into the dest. airport?

i don't like doing VMC or any single engine maneuvers above the clouds. you could alway request a block of airspace to play around in for the maneuvers, but i don't do it myself.

as far as engine out practice in IMC, there is no way in hell i will do that. just like partial panel i won't do that either. very dangerous because there is too much going on for you to handle if the student f's it up. it would be a good way to get yourself killed imho

[SpiraMirabilis]

I agree. I've gotten VFR on top clearance to do maneuvers in a block altitude (including engine shutdowns but I like to be at least 3000' above the tops.) but theres no way I'd do a single engine approach or a partial panel in actual IMC.

[nocturnalaviator]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

On the other hand...Your a CFII-go get your head in the clouds!

Thanks yeah that's what i was getting at, too much going on in case of f-ups and just not safe. That's what I use the frasca for. I was told the IFR rating is to help you get OUT of or how to deal with the weather, doesn't mean to go looking for it, that's just what I was taught.

[BuickCFI]

dont go looking for weather you shouldnt be in, but my all means if it is "good ifr" there is no reason not to go do lessons in it

[nocturnalaviator]

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by nocturnalaviator

unless of course you are doing engine failures or partial panel :lol:

[jrh]

Just curious, how do part 135 freight companies perform training? Do they do single engine work in the clouds?

I thought I remember hearing how Amflight does their training night or day, rain or shine, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

[BajtheJino]

A lot of companies do their training in all weather, day or night-though I've never done engine failures in solid IMC.

Onto the other ideas: Most planes have instruments on both sides-Why wouldn't you do partial panel in IMC? All you have to do if the person starts having problems is remove your sticky notes or suction cups or whatever You can't keep up on your side? How do you expect people to learn? Obviously, you can't train people for everything out there but some light chop, rain and low decks are to be sought out when the opportunity presents itself. It just makes everyone involved a better, well rounded pilot.
Of course, all of the above is just an opinion and has no bearing on anything.

[murphfly]

Originally Posted by jrh

Just curious, how do part 135 freight companies perform training? Do they do single engine work in the clouds?

I thought I remember hearing how Amflight does their training night or day, rain or shine, but I'm not sure if that's accurate.

That is pretty close to how training at Airnet is done. If there's icing, turb, tstorms, etc that night, well you're going to be dealing with it. I did a circling NDB approach when the clouds were right at the MDA (skirting the bottom) and the vis was low. Single engine and partial panel are done in the weather.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by murphfly

That is pretty close to how training at Airnet is done. If there's icing, turb, tstorms, etc that night, well you're going to be dealing with it. I did a circling NDB approach when the clouds were right at the MDA (skirting the bottom) and the vis was low. Single engine and partial panel are done in the weather.

That's what I thought.

I don't see anything inherently dangerous about doing single engine work in IMC, but I've only given two hours of dual in a twin, so what do I know? I figured I ought to see how the professionals at 135 companies train before I go spouting off about what is or isn't safe.

I wouldn't want nocturnalaviator to get in to a situation he can't handle, but at the same time, I can't help but wonder what the qualifications should be for an instructor teaching ATP applicants. If the instructor isn't comfortable/proficient enough to teach to the limits of the rating sought, maybe they shouldn't be teaching it.

And this isn't an attack on you, nocturnalaviator. I'm just philosophizing (sp?) about instructors in general.

[minitour]

Originally Posted by jrh

I wouldn't want nocturnalaviator to get in to a situation he can't handle, but at the same time, I can't help but wonder what the qualifications should be for an instructor teaching ATP applicants. If the instructor isn't comfortable/proficient enough to teach to the limits of the rating sought, maybe they shouldn't be teaching it.

It's a self-policing thing. For example, I won't teach 0/0 takeoffs in actual 0/0 weather. I figure I always wanted to get back in.

I have, however, done partial panel, OEI, Vmc Demo, etc. in the clouds.

...I won't do Vmc demos anymore in IMC. Only took one time to get over that one. Shut downs and OEI approaches, etc...no problem.

If I'm in a FIKI plane and getting ice (any ice), stalls are pretty much out of the question. I don't like subjecting unprotected areas of the aircraft to ice. The exception would be, known areas that I can shed the ice (warmer air below or above) or if that was the only maneuver I was doing and then head down to be de-iced...sure. I don't want to tool around forever in ice with ice on the unprotected surfaces because I decided to do stalls though.

You have to self-police yourself in the CFI world (unless there's a SOP/Ops Manual that does it for you like in 141 - even then you still need to make sure you're not doing anything outside your own personal limitations) to stay alive but you also need to balance the experience so your student does learn something.

Definitely a tough spot.

-mini

[BajtheJino]

I just want to clarify something here-You guys shut one down in IMC or just pull the power back to simulate failure? Just curious...

[minitour]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

I just want to clarify something here-You guys shut one down in IMC or just pull the power back to simulate failure? Just curious...

Zero thrust. I don't do OEI approaches with one feathered unless it's the real deal.

-mini

[nocturnalaviator]

Originally Posted by jrh

That's what I thought.


I wouldn't want nocturnalaviator to get in to a situation he can't handle, but at the same time, I can't help but wonder what the qualifications should be for an instructor teaching ATP applicants. If the instructor isn't comfortable/proficient enough to teach to the limits of the rating sought, maybe they shouldn't be teaching it.

And this isn't an attack on you, nocturnalaviator. I'm just philosophizing (sp?) about instructors in general.

I totally agree with you! Teaching ATP apps was a bitch and I was between a rock and a hard place. How can I be Mr. instructor to a 1500+ pilot or a 50yr old man finally wanting to get an ATP rating? I had a discussion with the DE and he felt my pain and said that's one of the problems at my company, low hour pilots instructing more experienced pilots, you have no leverage. Lucky for me my head is the same size as when I first started I make more friends, better pass rate, and learn more things that way. It also was hard for me to tell them their faults because who the hell am I??? Thank GOD for that PTS that was my best friend, Mr. PTS did all the talking for me . I have to say out of all the pilots the C-17, C-5 guys were the best! At least when they briefed they said, "In the event of an emergency we'll work as a crew, you will switch to PIC and i will hand you the airplane." Things went alot smoother and they knew their stuff. I've had guys fighting me in the cockpit because of the ego "I HAVE MORE TIME" or "I FLY AN RJ" being an instructor doesn't mean jack unless you've got age an experience to back you up for these ATP guys. IMHO I believe low hour CFIs like myself should instruct student pilots and add-ons, NOT ATPs. I guess that's why I was shy of getting into the clouds, I didn't want to die before my REAL job. I got my actual time either by myself or with my company's career students who I already knew and were accustomed to in the airplane.

[Always Moving]

Call App and ask them. different places do things different.


From destination and departure being the same with a 20 minute flight plan. So if you have radio failure you do not block 2h of airspace, to call before you go like in Houston.