PPL Checkride

[juxtapilot]

A buddy of mine had his PPL checkride oral and I guess it was pretty detailed. He didn't pass unfortunatly. The pilot asked what the shear drive (vacume pump) and what CFIT was (Controlled flight into terrain.) From what he described the Oral seemed to be very difficult. He wasn't permitted to look anything up during it.

I think he ought to find a different examiner. What are your thoughts? He has to finish the Oral and fly. For the most part his knowledge is very good, and it seems that the FAA guy was really difficult. The FAA guy made him do AOPA's runway safety test, which he scored a 60 percent on, (I scored 80 barely passing.) That was factored into his un-sat.

Thoughts? Montanapilot PM me for details.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

He wasn't permitted to look anything up during it.

Hmm. . .interesting.

Sounds like we have another rogue DPE.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

A buddy of mine had his PPL checkride oral and I guess it was pretty detailed. He didn't pass unfortunatly. The pilot asked what the shear drive (vacume pump) and what CFIT was (Controlled flight into terrain.) From what he described the Oral seemed to be very difficult.

Shear drive? I'm not familiar with that term - what is it?

And CFIT? That's not a difficult concept - what were the problems there?

I guess I'd have to know other questions the DE asked - hard to tell much from the few examples you listed.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Shear drive? I'm not familiar with that term - what is it?

The drive shaft for the vacuum pump will shear in case of a pump failure. Saves engine components from damage.

Like Ian said, not really enough information to comment. I'm kinda surprised to hear of a shear coupling coming up during a PPL ride, but I have a skewed perception of how much systems knowledge pilots are expected to have.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Berkut

The drive shaft for the vacuum pump will shear in case of a pump failure. Saves engine components from damage.

Okay - I just noticed the OPs parenthetical (vacuum pump) next to "shear drive." Makes sense now.

[CDVdriver]

Need more info but this doesn't sound good.
First impression is that you are dealing with an over zealous examiner.
Why would a PPL not be allowed to look things up, as long as it is not every second thing?
Was this one of those people that wants to know wing span to the inch accurate, propeller diameter and nose wheel air pressure? I bet he is.

[bdhill1979]

Examiners not letting somebody look something up is not necessarily as heartless as it sounds. There are a lot of things that I expect my students to know cold before I even let them solo. There are some things that you simply must know.

Also I have known examiners to not allow someone to look things up if they can't give at least a general explanation, then look up the details. Particularly on specific PTS items.

[Pilot2087]

Remember that there are two sides to every story... I dont know how many checkrides I watched that the applicant didnt know their stuff, and would want to look up EVERYTHING up because they didnt have a clue about it, they would bust... then the student goes home and tells everyone about the hardest questions that the examiner asked (even though it wasn't really applicable). My guess is that the examiner is a pretty fair guy (most are).

[juxtapilot]

Thanks for the replies. I guess what ticked me off, is the examiner wouldn't let him look up wx mins in Class E airspace-I guess he got his mins mixed up, knew he was wrong, and asked to look it up in his FARs. Also my friend is asian and was asked "How do you know you are a U.S. citzen?"

He's had a bunch of "mock" checkride, I have quized him myself. He definatly knows enough to fly as a PPL and was wondering "Where are all the normal questions?"

I get the sense the examiner is "out to get him." Would it hurt the student if he switched examiners?

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

Thanks for the replies. I guess what ticked me off, is the examiner wouldn't let him look up wx mins in Class E airspace-I guess he got his mins mixed up, knew he was wrong, and asked to look it up in his FARs. Also my friend is asian and was asked "How do you know you are a U.S. citzen?"

He's had a bunch of "mock" checkride, I have quized him myself. He definatly knows enough to fly as a PPL and was wondering "Where are all the normal questions?"

I get the sense the examiner is "out to get him." Would it hurt the student if he switched examiners?

Err... WTF.

[juxtapilot]

My thoughts exactly.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

Wouldn't let him look up wx mins in Class E airspace. Also my friend is asian and was asked "How do you know you are a U.S. citzen?"

I think wx minimums should be down cold for a checkride, but the citizen comment sounds out of line. I could see him asking for proof to make sure but asking "how he knows....." doesnt sound right. I'd try a different examiner

[Nihon_Ni]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

Thanks for the replies. I guess what ticked me off, is the examiner wouldn't let him look up wx mins in Class E airspace-I guess he got his mins mixed up, knew he was wrong, and asked to look it up in his FARs. Also my friend is asian and was asked "How do you know you are a U.S. citzen?"

He's had a bunch of "mock" checkride, I have quized him myself. He definatly knows enough to fly as a PPL and was wondering "Where are all the normal questions?"

I get the sense the examiner is "out to get him." Would it hurt the student if he switched examiners?

In MHO, these are all normal questions.

How do you know you are a US citizen? Well, there is a reg that requires all private, instrument and ME applicants to receive a citizenship endorsement prior to begining training. He should have turned to his endorsement and showed it to the examiner. Without that endorsement, the check ride is over. The examiner's hands are tied. You can't legally start flight training without it. It's similar to the question, "How do you know this airplane is airworthy?" You go to the aircraft logbooks and point out all the entries for the required inspections.

A Private Pilot should know the Class E weather mins cold. Period. That's the airspace GA pilots fly in most of the time. I expect solo stage pilots to know it. If I did a stage check for a pilot and he didn't know that verbatim, the flight would be over. I'd give him some slack on class A, B, C & G; but D and E are requirements. At the very least, if a applicant couldn't spout off the weather mins for Class D & E I'd form the opinion that this is a pilot who doesn't have the required knowledge and skill, and all I have to do is dig a little more to figure out the problem areas.

BTW, what was his score on the written test? I always tell my students that your test result is the first impression a DPE will have of you. It's one of the first things he asks for (right after he asks for the check). If you hand him a test score of 95% it's human nature for him to think, "This will be an east test because this guy knows what he's doing." Then, when you stumble on a point or two (and you will), the DPE thinks to himself, "That was a fluke because this guy is good." He gives you the benefit of the doubt because you have already established your proficiency in the form of good test results. Conversely, if you hand him a report with a 75% on it he's likely to think, "This guy got through by the skin of his teeth." Now when you stumble on a point or two the DPE thinks, "I knew it! I knew he couldn't do it." It's just human nature to let your first impression form that opinion.

The front of every PTS lists runway incursion avoidance as one of 11 special emphasis areas. (Examiners shall place special emphasis upon areas of aircraft operations considered critical to flight safety. Among there are:...7. runway incursion avoidance....) Special emphasis areas are evaluated on every check flight for every rating. It's not something the FAA makes up just for the PPL. It's completely fair for the examiner to give the AOPA's runway safety test and expect applicant's to be able to pass it. Look at that test and then picture yourself on short final at a non-towered field with another pilot taxiing to the hold short. How many of those 10 questions would you want him to get wrong and still be able to get his license? I submit that missing 40% of these basic questions is an indicator of a deficiency and it's someone I wouldn't want to meet in this situation if I was on short final.

Now if I was your friend, I'd probably feel like the examiner was out to get me too because he kept asking questions I didn't know and wouldn't let me look things up. That's a defense mechanism called rationalization: "If students cannot accept the real reasons for their behavior, they may rationalize. This device permits them to substitute excuses for reasons; moreover, they can make those excuses plausible and acceptable to themselves. Rationalization is a subconscious technique for justifying actions that otherwise would be unacceptable. When true rationalization takes place, individuals sincerely believe in their excuses. The excuses seem real and justifiable to the individual." (FAA Aviation Instructor's Handbook) It sounds like that's exactly what you and your friend are doing. He sincerely believes the examiner is out to get him, but he is sincerely wrong.

Look at it from the DPE's standpoint: What possible reason does he have to "get him"? He is in business as a DPE. He has gone through a painful process to get a DPE rating from the FAA by proving that he knows exactly what the PTS demands. His goal is to have applicants pay him for checkrides, and have those checkride sucessfully completed. For applicants who fail, he has to meet with them again for half price. If he develops a reputation as Capt Pink Sheet, then no CFIs will send applicants to him and he will be out of business. On the other hand, he has a duty to not give away ratings to people who don't earn them.

Like several others have suggested, there aren't enough details in your posts to provide meaningful suggestions on what the student should do, but I would suggest that he not change examiners (that's a defense mechanism called flight) but rather take the criticism from the examiner to heart. From the information you've relayed, there really is something he is missing in order to be a safe pilot who won't end up as a statistic.

Blue skies,
Rob

[juxtapilot]

Thanks Rob,

I will keep you updated on what happens with his next checkride. As you have recommended he is studying up on his weak points that the examiner tested him on and switching examiners. (I'm sure he now scores a 100% on the AOPA test.) I think he'll be fine with the new guy.

[Always Moving]

You said in the beginning FAA but is he an FAA examiner or a DPE Designated pilot examiner?

Looks to me that he is a bit on the hard side, but it is simple, change, after a few people do not take rides with him, he either retire or change

I had an examiner that he was very cool and nice but when he ask me a question he disagree with me (MEI ride) I said ok ok ok, pass, went home find the info (I had a 2 inch file on that particular subject with letter from different FSDO's and the FAA final ruling) and mail it to him to proof him wrong, I never heard from him again. THEY ARE HUMAN! after all.

[Wing_96]

You mean to tell me I could have looked up answers on my PPL check ride? My CFI expected me to know everything cold. That bastard!

I know there are things you are going to forget on a check ride, but I agree with the others, airspace is probably one that you should not have to look up...

I'm curious to know if the examiner was FAA or DPE too. This could be the reason for the "harder" oral exam from what I have heard.

I would suggest what everybody else has...have your friend get proficient on his knowledge and find another DPE.