Plane is IFR Certified....or not?

CaliforniaSurfer · October 7th, 2003, 22:52

How can you tell? Does it simply have to have all the equipment/instruments listed in 91.205 or is their more to it.

I have a guy who owns an older C182 and wants to get his instrument ticket. I am meeting with him tomorrow and would like to know if we can even use his airplane. What should I be looking for?

Thanks

Surf

raysalmon · October 8th, 2003, 07:43

Look in the limitations section of the POH, it should tell you if the airplane is approved for IFR. It may also list the equipment that needs to be installed in order for that approval to be valid. If it does not, then refer to 91.205 for the list.

Additionally, the transponder, altimeter and pitot-static system must have been certified within the preceding 24 calendar months, and the VOR must have been checked within the last 30 days.

Ray

CaliforniaSurfer · October 8th, 2003, 10:03

Thanks Ray, I'll start there.

Surf

chrisdahut1 · October 10th, 2003, 14:36

Easiest place to look (other then in the AFM) is at the big placard thats always supposed to be in the pilots view. I don't know if this placard has a name, but on the cessna's, it's usually just above the pilots. It states the general limitations for that specific aircraft (eg- "Flight into known icing conditions prohibited"). At the bottom, it should read "VFR-IFR-DAY-NIGHT". Of course if the IFR portion is ommited, it ain't approved for IFR flight, regardless of how impressive the instrument panel looks.

Probably a little too late with this reply, but hope it helps.

CaliforniaSurfer · October 10th, 2003, 17:10

Not too little, nor too late.

I met with the guy and it's a decent plane. As far as 91.205 goes he needs to install a clock and he is going to get DME installed as well.

I checked his POH and it said it's certified for VFR day/night and if equipped, certified for IFR. I don't know what that means exactly. I'll check for that placard.

Thanks

Surf

raysalmon · October 10th, 2003, 18:15

the "if equipped" just means that it has the required 91.205 instruments on board. I don't know if the POH has a Kinds of Operation Equipment list, that might shed some light too. If it does, I'd go by that list instead of 91.205.

Ray

sigmanu499 · October 10th, 2003, 22:34

I am not 100% sure on this but I dont think that the clock has to be "installed" on the aircraft. I think that you can(like I did) get a radio shack clock/timer with seconds and then put it on a yoke clip.
Most yoke clips that I have seen already have the velcrow for this. Also, when looking for the clock/timer it is helpful if the timer will count down and not just count up.

ERAU_Intern · October 11th, 2003, 10:19

Yeah, but if he could get one of those great little digital jobs like the new Cessnas are comming with, that would be great. those things are SO less cumbersome than one of those radio shack, clip-ons. Plus, it frees up the yoke for approach plates and other such charts.

Alchemy · October 11th, 2003, 10:46

I was told by a DPE that the clock had to be installed in the aircraft, and that a handheld timer didn't satisfy the FAR requirement for IFR minimum equipment.

cime_sp · October 11th, 2003, 17:51

Keep in mind that if you buy one of those "aviation" timers you see everywhere and you are going to put it anywhere near the panel (yoke, panel, glaresield, etc) make sure you REMOVE THE MAGNET form the back!!! It can cause some havock with needles and compasses

CaliforniaSurfer · October 11th, 2003, 18:12

Yeah, I've been told my a DE and the Chief Pilot of a 141 school that the clock has to be installed in the panel, not velcroed on or on a yoke clip.

Surf

ERAU_Intern · October 12th, 2003, 21:19

Hmm. Interesting how something like a clock, can cause this much uncertainty.

Josh · October 13th, 2003, 00:40

The regs say "instruments and equipment are required...", not installed in the panel. Normally, VOR, and other such insturments will be installed in a panel (hmm, wonder if you can get one of those handhelds with a VOR indication certified

) but you can 'install' a wrist watch by wrapping it around the yoke. Or velcro it to the panel.

14 CFR 91.205 (d) Insturment flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

14 CFR 91.205 (d)(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

I think it is pretty easy to see that the clock in this case is equipment, and not an instrument. As such, it is not installed. Or not required to be. So if you wear a watch, you are set. For me, I wear a watch, and adjust it when getting clearance. Usually, I'll get a "clearance void if not off by xxxx, current time is xxyy" and I fix the clock then if more than a minute different from their time.

So if you are in the aircraft, wearing the watch, then the aircraft does "contain" that required piece of equipment, as specified in 14 CFR 91.205 (a)

Josh

cime_sp · October 13th, 2003, 09:28

Anybody check Part 23 (Certification of airplanes)? That is probably where you would find the correct answer....

SEAN · October 14th, 2003, 14:28

[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that if you buy one of those "aviation" timers you see everywhere and you are going to put it anywhere near the panel (yoke, panel, glaresield, etc) make sure you REMOVE THE MAGNET form the back!!! It can cause some havock with needles and compasses

[/ QUOTE ]

man, i didnt even think of that. on my ifr checkride i couldnt get the 360 degree timed turn to come out even within 10 degrees. it was way off and the de said the compass must be screwed up. Well, i looked at my clock and there is a little magnet in the back. huh....you learn something new everyday...although i feel like an idiot. good thing i didnt get failed for that......

cime_sp · October 15th, 2003, 19:55

If you really want to have some fun call your cell phone (while you are on the ground) and see what it does! Or place it next to any speaker or TV.....

NJA_Capt · October 18th, 2003, 19:31

91.205 aside, the key issue is the aircraft logbook. There must be current 91.411 and 91.413 signoffs. Each requires a separate entry. Other good things to check are the ELT battery (date)and current wt and balance.

ananoman · October 18th, 2003, 20:43

I have been wrong before, but I do not belive that a wrist watch or timer stuck to the instrument panel qualifies as a clock under 91.205. If something is not listed on an aircraft's equipment list, it is not 'installed'.

By your reasoning I could buy a one of those fancy wristwatches that has an altimeter and fly around VFR even if no altimeter is installed in the aircraft, since the airplane 'contains' a working altimeter.

I think the best answer is to check the POH and placards in the aircraft. There are some aircraft that are well equipped with all required instruments and equipment that are still not certified for instrument flight. The Diamond Katana/DA-20 come to mind. They are composite and do not meet lightning strike criteria.

If you know the aircraft is certified and equipped for instrument flight, then check the maintenance records for the required inspections and signoffs. If these have been performed then the aircraft is ok for IFR.

difete · October 26th, 2003, 23:05

Well, the regs dont say you need an IFR certified aircraft to teach instrument in it. You can teach in one certified VFR, as long as you have enough equipment in the cockpit to teach with.

JJPilot · October 27th, 2003, 09:23

but you would have to cancel and IFR lesson due to weather? Kinda weird huh?

You would never get any actual and that is not a good way to become an instrument pilot.

raysalmon · October 27th, 2003, 13:49

Well, where I live, 90% of IFR weather is either convective (summer) or icy (winter), so hood work has to do. Not perfect, but doable.

Ray

av8rmsu · October 27th, 2003, 16:01

same thing in FL

kellwolf · November 22nd, 2003, 10:51

[ QUOTE ]
I think the best answer is to check the POH and placards in the aircraft. There are some aircraft that are well equipped with all required instruments and equipment that are still not certified for instrument flight. The Diamond Katana/DA-20 come to mind. They are composite and do not meet lightning strike criteria.

[/ QUOTE ]

My school just got a Diamond Eclipse, and it is the same way. I was all psyched sitting in it with my instructor, and I asked if we could take it on an instrument training flight. About the time I said that, I saw the big placard in the middle that says something like 'Approved for VFR flight only.' I started wondering why a school in FL would get planes that don't have lightning protection. I guess you COULD use it for IFR training, IF you remained VFR. It satisfies all the 91.205 requirements.

JEP · November 22nd, 2003, 12:21

yep, you could use it for IFR training "under the hood" as long as you remained in VFR conditions.

bluelake · November 22nd, 2003, 20:12

...and that means that you could not file IFR even though your flight may occur completely in VMC conditions...

I have a future instrument student who flies an Eclipse. I hope to do most of her training in the Eclipse, but anytime we want to fly IN IMC or FILE under IFR, she'll have to crawl back to our modest FBO and take out our C172N beater

October 7th, 2003, 22:52	#1
CaliforniaSurfer Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SoCal Posts: 296	Plane is IFR Certified....or not? How can you tell? Does it simply have to have all the equipment/instruments listed in 91.205 or is their more to it. I have a guy who owns an older C182 and wants to get his instrument ticket. I am meeting with him tomorrow and would like to know if we can even use his airplane. What should I be looking for? Thanks Surf

October 8th, 2003, 07:43	#2
raysalmon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: CO Posts: 260	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Look in the limitations section of the POH, it should tell you if the airplane is approved for IFR. It may also list the equipment that needs to be installed in order for that approval to be valid. If it does not, then refer to 91.205 for the list. Additionally, the transponder, altimeter and pitot-static system must have been certified within the preceding 24 calendar months, and the VOR must have been checked within the last 30 days. Ray

October 8th, 2003, 10:03	#3
CaliforniaSurfer Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SoCal Posts: 296	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Thanks Ray, I'll start there. Surf

October 10th, 2003, 14:36	#4
chrisdahut1 Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Louisville, KY & Florida Posts: 268	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Easiest place to look (other then in the AFM) is at the big placard thats always supposed to be in the pilots view. I don't know if this placard has a name, but on the cessna's, it's usually just above the pilots. It states the general limitations for that specific aircraft (eg- "Flight into known icing conditions prohibited"). At the bottom, it should read "VFR-IFR-DAY-NIGHT". Of course if the IFR portion is ommited, it ain't approved for IFR flight, regardless of how impressive the instrument panel looks. Probably a little too late with this reply, but hope it helps.

October 10th, 2003, 17:10	#5
CaliforniaSurfer Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SoCal Posts: 296	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Not too little, nor too late. I met with the guy and it's a decent plane. As far as 91.205 goes he needs to install a clock and he is going to get DME installed as well. I checked his POH and it said it's certified for VFR day/night and if equipped, certified for IFR. I don't know what that means exactly. I'll check for that placard. Thanks Surf

October 10th, 2003, 18:15	#6
raysalmon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: CO Posts: 260	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? the "if equipped" just means that it has the required 91.205 instruments on board. I don't know if the POH has a Kinds of Operation Equipment list, that might shed some light too. If it does, I'd go by that list instead of 91.205. Ray

October 10th, 2003, 22:34	#7
sigmanu499 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 232	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? I am not 100% sure on this but I dont think that the clock has to be "installed" on the aircraft. I think that you can(like I did) get a radio shack clock/timer with seconds and then put it on a yoke clip. Most yoke clips that I have seen already have the velcrow for this. Also, when looking for the clock/timer it is helpful if the timer will count down and not just count up.

October 11th, 2003, 10:19	#8
ERAU_Intern Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Knoxville, Maryland Posts: 244	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Yeah, but if he could get one of those great little digital jobs like the new Cessnas are comming with, that would be great. those things are SO less cumbersome than one of those radio shack, clip-ons. Plus, it frees up the yoke for approach plates and other such charts.

October 11th, 2003, 10:46	#9
Alchemy Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austin, TX, USA Posts: 1,800	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? I was told by a DPE that the clock had to be installed in the aircraft, and that a handheld timer didn't satisfy the FAR requirement for IFR minimum equipment.

October 11th, 2003, 17:51	#10
cime_sp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ATL Posts: 782	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Keep in mind that if you buy one of those "aviation" timers you see everywhere and you are going to put it anywhere near the panel (yoke, panel, glaresield, etc) make sure you REMOVE THE MAGNET form the back!!! It can cause some havock with needles and compasses

October 11th, 2003, 18:12	#11
CaliforniaSurfer Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: SoCal Posts: 296	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Yeah, I've been told my a DE and the Chief Pilot of a 141 school that the clock has to be installed in the panel, not velcroed on or on a yoke clip. Surf

October 12th, 2003, 21:19	#12
ERAU_Intern Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Knoxville, Maryland Posts: 244	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Hmm. Interesting how something like a clock, can cause this much uncertainty.

October 13th, 2003, 00:40	#13
Josh Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Santa Cruz, California Posts: 686	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? The regs say "instruments and equipment are required...", not installed in the panel. Normally, VOR, and other such insturments will be installed in a panel (hmm, wonder if you can get one of those handhelds with a VOR indication certified ) but you can 'install' a wrist watch by wrapping it around the yoke. Or velcro it to the panel. 14 CFR 91.205 (d) Insturment flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: 14 CFR 91.205 (d)(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation. I think it is pretty easy to see that the clock in this case is equipment, and not an instrument. As such, it is not installed. Or not required to be. So if you wear a watch, you are set. For me, I wear a watch, and adjust it when getting clearance. Usually, I'll get a "clearance void if not off by xxxx, current time is xxyy" and I fix the clock then if more than a minute different from their time. So if you are in the aircraft, wearing the watch, then the aircraft does "contain" that required piece of equipment, as specified in 14 CFR 91.205 (a) Josh

October 13th, 2003, 09:28	#14
cime_sp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ATL Posts: 782	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Anybody check Part 23 (Certification of airplanes)? That is probably where you would find the correct answer....

October 14th, 2003, 14:28	#15
SEAN Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WASHINGTON, DC Posts: 135	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? [ QUOTE ] Keep in mind that if you buy one of those "aviation" timers you see everywhere and you are going to put it anywhere near the panel (yoke, panel, glaresield, etc) make sure you REMOVE THE MAGNET form the back!!! It can cause some havock with needles and compasses [/ QUOTE ] man, i didnt even think of that. on my ifr checkride i couldnt get the 360 degree timed turn to come out even within 10 degrees. it was way off and the de said the compass must be screwed up. Well, i looked at my clock and there is a little magnet in the back. huh....you learn something new everyday...although i feel like an idiot. good thing i didnt get failed for that......

October 15th, 2003, 19:55	#16
cime_sp Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ATL Posts: 782	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? If you really want to have some fun call your cell phone (while you are on the ground) and see what it does! Or place it next to any speaker or TV.....

October 18th, 2003, 19:31	#17
NJA_Capt Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Low Earth Orbit Posts: 1,389	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? 91.205 aside, the key issue is the aircraft logbook. There must be current 91.411 and 91.413 signoffs. Each requires a separate entry. Other good things to check are the ELT battery (date)and current wt and balance.

October 18th, 2003, 20:43	#18
ananoman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 916	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? I have been wrong before, but I do not belive that a wrist watch or timer stuck to the instrument panel qualifies as a clock under 91.205. If something is not listed on an aircraft's equipment list, it is not 'installed'. By your reasoning I could buy a one of those fancy wristwatches that has an altimeter and fly around VFR even if no altimeter is installed in the aircraft, since the airplane 'contains' a working altimeter. I think the best answer is to check the POH and placards in the aircraft. There are some aircraft that are well equipped with all required instruments and equipment that are still not certified for instrument flight. The Diamond Katana/DA-20 come to mind. They are composite and do not meet lightning strike criteria. If you know the aircraft is certified and equipped for instrument flight, then check the maintenance records for the required inspections and signoffs. If these have been performed then the aircraft is ok for IFR.

October 26th, 2003, 23:05	#19
difete Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 91	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Well, the regs dont say you need an IFR certified aircraft to teach instrument in it. You can teach in one certified VFR, as long as you have enough equipment in the cockpit to teach with.

October 27th, 2003, 09:23	#20
JJPilot Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 140	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? but you would have to cancel and IFR lesson due to weather? Kinda weird huh? You would never get any actual and that is not a good way to become an instrument pilot.

October 27th, 2003, 13:49	#21
raysalmon Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: CO Posts: 260	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? Well, where I live, 90% of IFR weather is either convective (summer) or icy (winter), so hood work has to do. Not perfect, but doable. Ray

October 27th, 2003, 16:01	#22
av8rmsu Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Pickwick Lake Posts: 448	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? same thing in FL

November 22nd, 2003, 10:51	#23
kellwolf Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 13,868	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? [ QUOTE ] I think the best answer is to check the POH and placards in the aircraft. There are some aircraft that are well equipped with all required instruments and equipment that are still not certified for instrument flight. The Diamond Katana/DA-20 come to mind. They are composite and do not meet lightning strike criteria. [/ QUOTE ] My school just got a Diamond Eclipse, and it is the same way. I was all psyched sitting in it with my instructor, and I asked if we could take it on an instrument training flight. About the time I said that, I saw the big placard in the middle that says something like 'Approved for VFR flight only.' I started wondering why a school in FL would get planes that don't have lightning protection. I guess you COULD use it for IFR training, IF you remained VFR. It satisfies all the 91.205 requirements.

November 22nd, 2003, 12:21	#24
JEP Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Eden Prairie, MN (KFCM) (KMSP) Posts: 10,887 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? yep, you could use it for IFR training "under the hood" as long as you remained in VFR conditions.

November 22nd, 2003, 20:12	#25
bluelake Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Redding, CA Posts: 619	Re: Plane is IFR Certified....or not? ...and that means that you could not file IFR even though your flight may occur completely in VMC conditions... I have a future instrument student who flies an Eclipse. I hope to do most of her training in the Eclipse, but anytime we want to fly IN IMC or FILE under IFR, she'll have to crawl back to our modest FBO and take out our C172N beater

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