Commercial limitations, where in the regs other than 61.133?

[Duck_Twacy]

I've been hammering through the regs studying for my CFI, and while reading another post about what you can and can't get paid to do, I figured I didn't know exactly where that was in the regs so it would be a good thing to look up.

Other than 61.133, I really couldn't find anything specific to having or being on a certificate. I know that there's a lot more to "carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is certificated in accordance with this part...", I would just like to read it. Without the basic understanding that I have, I could almost read 61.133 and think that I could start my own airline using rented planes at the FBO.

Where is that part (or more likely, those parts) in the regs?

The thing that really got me to thinking about it was a question pertaining to freelancing, and landing with students at other than originating airports in a rented aircraft. How would I interpret the regs to address that scenario?

Thanks!

[moxiepilot]

if I remember correctly, 119 has the info for the exceptions of commercial ops. (ie: parachute, instruction, sightseeing, etc.). It's within the first few regs, but I cant remember if it's 119.1, 119.2 but it's in the first few pages

[Duck_Twacy]

119.1, right on the money, thanks Paul!

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Duck_Twacy

Where is that part (or more likely, those parts) in the regs?

Part 119 is only a start. The bulk of the restrictions on the use of the Commercial Certificate are buried in the interpretations of the reguations, not in the regulations themselves.

[Duck_Twacy]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Part 119 is only a start. The bulk of the restrictions on the use of the Commercial Certificate are buried in the interpretations of the reguations, not in the regulations themselves.

Yeah, that's the part that makes my head hurt. I'm sure the answers are as much "what's not in 121 and 135" as what's actually in 119 or 61.

[Sidious]

Originally Posted by Duck_Twacy

Yeah, that's the part that makes my head hurt. I'm sure the answers are as much "what's not in 121 and 135" as what's actually in 119 or 61.

AC 120-12A along with the regs you are looking at in 119 and 61 should suffice.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by Duck_Twacy

Yeah, that's the part that makes my head hurt. I'm sure the answers are as much "what's not in 121 and 135" as what's actually in 119 or 61.

Fortunately, I haven't heard of many examiners who go into any real depth into Parts 119, 135 and 121 on a pilot or CFI ride beyond (1) knowing that these Parts (and some others) exist and what they generally cover and (2) the very basic list of exceptions to the requirement for an operating certificate in 119.1(e).

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Fortunately, I haven't heard of many examiners who go into any real depth into Parts 119, 135 and 121 on a pilot or CFI ride beyond (1) knowing that these Parts (and some others) exist and what they generally cover and (2) the very basic list of exceptions to the requirement for an operating certificate in 119.1(e).

+1.

and as sidious mentioned from ac 120-12a, there are isolated cases where a commercial pilot may conduct private carriage as a 'contract carrier' for a limited number of client contracts, generally on a long-term basis. the ac was written in 1986 and i have found none that supercede it, but having a close relationship with your local fsdo..in other words, being quite open with them concerning the details of your operation - without an 'air taxi operating certificate' - will make life much easier for you and ensure your ability to indeed act as a contract carrier. 10 years ago i assisted a man obtain his 'atco' working single-pilot in a piper seneca. he held out to the public in 'common carriage', as the regs allow. eventually, he decided to not renew his atco and continued as a 'contract carrier',working not under part 135, but part 91 for two clients only. in other words, he certainly couldn't advertise his services in the phone book.. hope this helps.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Duck_Twacy

Yeah, that's the part that makes my head hurt. I'm sure the answers are as much "what's not in 121 and 135" as what's actually in 119 or 61.

Here's what I have in my checkride prep document:

Commercial flying permitted under part 91:

1. The exemptions listed in 14 CFR 119

2. Can fly for a commercial operator or air carrier that possesses the appropriate certificate from the FAA.

3. Can provide piloting services as long as

a. Pilot must play no role in the acquisition or operational control of the airplane, and
b. whoever does procure the airplane (the operator) does not charge for the carriage of goods or passengers, and
c. if the operator is a business, then

(a) Flight must be only incidental to the operators business, and that business cannot be the transport of people or cargo.
(b) There can be no charge for anyone or anything transported on the airplane.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

3. Can provide piloting services as long as

a. Pilot must play no role in the acquisition or operational control of the airplane, and
b. whoever does procure the airplane (the operator) does not charge for the carriage of goods or passengers, and
c. if the operator is a business, then

(a) Flight must be only incidental to the operators business, and that business cannot be the transport of people or cargo.
(b) There can be no charge for anyone or anything transported on the airplane.

This last one is probably a step more than you need since a lot of DPEs and even some FAA inspectors would have a little bit of trouble with its permutations and it's actually pretty close to what even a private pilot can do.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Here's what I have in my checkride prep document:

Commercial flying permitted under part 91:

1. The exemptions listed in 14 CFR 119

2. Can fly for a commercial operator or air carrier that possesses the appropriate certificate from the FAA.

3. Can provide piloting services as long as

a. Pilot must play no role in the acquisition or operational control of the airplane, and
b. whoever does procure the airplane (the operator) does not charge for the carriage of goods or passengers, and
c. if the operator is a business, then

(a) Flight must be only incidental to the operators business, and that business cannot be the transport of people or cargo.
(b) There can be no charge for anyone or anything transported on the airplane.

good summary. ac 120-12a i would consider only as a special cases addendum..not something faa-promoted, but approved basically only on a case-by-case basis anyway. quite possibly why it's essentially 'buried' in a 21-year old ac.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

This last one is probably a step more than you need since a lot of DPEs and even some FAA inspectors would have a little bit of trouble with its permutations and it's actually pretty close to what even a private pilot can do.

may need to be a little more specific, but i think he's meaning that if an operator is a 'business' (wholly-owned aircraft by a person or business entity) that it may not use its aircraft to charge for the transportation of people or goods outside of business-related purposes without an air taxi commercial operator certificate. any flights must be only incidental to that business or person's business. i would say that a commercial pilot could be compensated for business-related flight for this business, even the carriage of passengers or goods..but only related to that business. in other words, a company which owns an aircraft may not compensate a commercial pilot to fly just anybody for any distinctly non-business related purpose, such as flying the business owner's friends to the coast for a vacation.

i've known of several businesses herein little rock, which routinely hire commercial pilots to fly for their business-related matters..including flying business personnel..all under the very aware watchful eye of our local fsdo.

[butt]

I brought up part 119 in a thread similar to this a while ago and everyone was saying that part 119 has nothing to do with commercial pilots. They said it only applies to commercial operators...

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by butt

I brought up part 119 in a thread similar to this a while ago and everyone was saying that part 119 has nothing to do with commercial pilots. They said it only applies to commercial operators...

Yes, in that thread I believe you were trying to construct the regulations to fit your argument, this scenerio posed is different...so, in the spirit of letting this thread continue down the productive path, lets leave it at that.

edit reason:
4. Be kind to your fellow user.
Take it outside, folks, this isn't cage fighting and 99.9% of the rest of us don't care that you two can't get along on a personal level.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by butt

I brought up part 119 in a thread similar to this a while ago and everyone was saying that part 119 has nothing to do with commercial pilots. They said it only applies to commercial operators...

Well it does. Part 119 is essentially the starting point for defining a "commercial operation." But the point is that you don't have to be a "company" to be considered a commercial operator. A single pilot with a rented 172 who transports people or property for hire is not only a commercial pilot, but a commercial operator as well.

Those exceptions in 119.1(e) are a list of "commercial operations" that don't require an operating certificate.