Pucker Factor (War Stories)

[Screaming_Emu]

So, I had an idea for a new thread. Today one of my students tried to kill me, and i thought it would be fun to hear some war stories.

I have a new student who didn't have the best luck at a big academy. He's got his PPL, but hasn't flown since June. He wants to continue with his CPL and IR. Today was our first lesson and I just wanted to kinda get an idea of how much rust he had from his time off. I dont want to start on commercial/instrument stuff if the basics aren't there.

We did the usual stalls, steep turns, slow flight, etc. That wasn't very good, but it wasn't horrible either. Some definite rust there. Did a simulated engine failure and that went quite well. So we headed to a nearby airport for some landings.

The approach started out a little high, but he fixed it with a slip. We get over the runway and he starts the flare. When he did this we started to drift right at a pretty good pace. The runway is only 65 ft wide and we were in a C172.

I tell him to get it back on centerline, and he decides that the best way to do that is to jam the left rudder to the floor. We end up touching down 45 degrees to the left and I ended up having to take controls from the student for only the 3rd time since I started CFIing in January. When we touched down, the left wheel started to come up in the air and somehow I got it straightened out before we flipped over.

Lesson learned...be ready.....always....

Love to hear some more stories, and most importantly, what you learned from them.

[moxiepilot]

I'd have to say that one thing I definitey have learned as a CFI is that complacency will definitely get you into trouble.

I consciously perk up during critical phases of flight especially at the end of a 12-16 hour day since I know I'm exhausted.

The worst is when you're flying in an aircraft you're unfamiliar with. For example, yesterday I began training an instrument student in his Liberty XL2. Pretty nice plane, but definitely one I'd be a little screwed in if there was an engine fire on start up since I havent had the opportunity to sit in it and soak in all the locations for stuff. Of course after the flight he said that I could take it anytime I want to take my g/f out for dinner. Nice offer but definitely not something I want to do until I'm more familiar with it.

As for war stories - I've had about a dozen almost pukers (greenies) but always gotten down in time.

I've almost been off the runway a few times, but always brought it back.

I've been spun a lot, but always seen that coming, the most interesting was right on the border of a spin turning base to final in a slip with bottom rudder (sound familiar???).

I've had a few very hard landings.

I had 1 engine fire on start up in a carburated engine that was over primed (no damage other than plastic melting) - that was exciting.

I had to land once in a 30 gusting to 40ish direct crosswind in a aircraft with a 15 kt capability. That was not fun.

Need some more?

[SoCalAprch]

Instrument student: We were coming back to KSEE gillespie in san diego after doing his long IFR cross country, which went really well and we were shooting the LOC 27 in at like 11:00 at night. The locolizer brings you in through the mountains and the minimums are like 1540. The ceiling was overcast at 1700. No biggie, so we get cleared for the approach and the first step down is from 4500 to 2700. When you get to 2700 feet, just from experience shooting the approach in VFR, you get real close to the mountains. Maybe 5 6 hundred feet. Well as Im crosschecking his set up coming up to SAMOS (2700) I looked up and he blew through 2700 and was on his way past 2400 at about 900 FPM, remember we are in the OVC layer and cant see shat, "My controls, WTF are you trying to do to us?" was what came out of my mouth. I could see what looked like street lights beneath us, kinda just white blothes in the clouds. Sucked the whole seat up that day. Still walk funny from it I think... Just scary not knowing whats in front of you and knowing that you are really low. That was the worst one Iv had.

Also had my fair share of crazy landings, spins, and the normal stuff.

Good thread...

[tprops4me]

Oh boy. I can't wait. Here is a question. When I was a student learning stalls and slow flight, I never even came close to spinning it. Do the majority of students end up spinning it? Maybe my instructor did me a disservice by not letting me get into trouble. If the ball was wandering he would always say "Don't let it go off to the side.". Just curious.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by tprops4me

Oh boy. I can't wait. Here is a question. When I was a student learning stalls and slow flight, I never even came close to spinning it. Do the majority of students end up spinning it? Maybe my instructor did me a disservice by not letting me get into trouble. If the ball was wandering he would always say "Don't let it go off to the side.". Just curious.

I wouldn't say that everyone spins it, but everyone at least has a wing drop. If you're doing it at a safe altitude and in an airplane that is easily recoverable then its not a bad idea to let your student make their own errors. I guarantee you that letting them accidentally spin it once is going to have more of an impact than repeatedly saying "more right rudder!"

[moxiepilot]

I will only allow the aircraft to go into an incipient spin or full blown spin if the student has progressed along in his/her training far enough to know better than to become uncoordinated in a stall.

All I think to myself is, "here we go...."

As an instructor I DO NOT want to scare a student. That is counter productive. But givien enough experience, I do believe it is a good idea to introduce spins. I will ask if they want one demonstrated. If they are close to their checkride and uncoordinated then I will let it go to allow them to see what can happen

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

I will only allow the aircraft to go into an incipient spin or full blown spin if the student has progressed along in his/her training far enough to know better than to become uncoordinated in a stall.

All I think to myself is, "here we go...."

As an instructor I DO NOT want to scare a student. That is counter productive. But givien enough experience, I do believe it is a good idea to introduce spins. I will ask if they want one demonstrated. If they are close to their checkride and uncoordinated then I will let it go to allow them to see what can happen

Yeah, I agree. I dont want to scare the student, and I wouldn't let it happen on our first few times doing stalls. I really only let mistakes go far if the student will actually learn from it. Or if the repeated verbal warnings don't seem to be making a difference.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by Screaming_Emu

I guarantee you that letting them accidentally spin it once is going to have more of an impact than repeatedly saying "more right rudder!"

I'd imagine it certainly would. Unfortunately it'd most likely be in a very negative way (abnormal fear of slow flight and/or stalls, or even quitting flight training).

What kinds of airplanes are you guys doing primary training in where they can enter a spin so easily? Decathlons or something? I can't get a 172 to spin at all, and a 152 needs to be coaxed into it.

[Screaming_Emu]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

I'd imagine it certainly would. Unfortunately it'd most likely be in a very negative way (abnormal fear of slow flight and/or stalls, or even quitting flight training).

What kinds of airplanes are you guys doing primary training in where they can enter a spin so easily? Decathlons or something? I can't get a 172 to spin at all, and a 152 needs to be coaxed into it.

DA20

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

Unfortunately it'd most likely be in a very negative way

Not if you take the necessary steps. Part of those necessary steps is planning ahead. I will prep a student for let's say 3 flights saying, "okay, student if you don't coordinate the airplane, you understand what may happen...right?"

If that also doesn't help, then eventually let an incipient spin develop, then eventually if they still aren't piking up on coordination (usually by now they have) I will let it go.

What kinds of airplanes are you guys doing primary training in where they can enter a spin so easily? Decathlons or something? I can't get a 172 to spin at all, and a 152 needs to be coaxed into it.

It's not necessarily *easy* to spin these things because of their stability, but they do spin. I train students in:

C172sp
PA28-180
PA28-181
DA20-C1
Liberty XL2

[SoCalAprch]

You can spin a 152 easier than anything I have flown. Im flying 172SP and Duchesses. But when I first started the 152s were what I was flying everyday. I had never flown one untill I started instructing and when I did my first stalls with a student I was in for a little suprise. Wing dropped like crazy and we would have spun if I didn't kick in opposite rudder. But I agree with what has been said, if the student is new and not anywhere near a checkride I will always use rudder to alleviate his/her problem and turn it into a learning experience. If you feel the wing drop add opposite rudder, then I usually show them a floating leaf and show them the effects of rudder control in a stall. But if they are prepping for their chekride my feet stay on the floor and we get to go spinning

[cTnT1786]

I am training in a 152 now (third lesson is today!) and on my second lesson I almost spun it.

I was going into a power-on stall and all of a sudden the left wing started to dip. Not knowing what that meant I just kept on going. My instructor corrected it and told me what would have happened. My eyes are always glancing at the ball now.

From my experience, 2 lessons lol, I think it is rather easy to spin a 152. That is all I have flown in now so I don't know about anyother planes.

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

What kinds of airplanes are you guys doing primary training in where they can enter a spin so easily? Decathlons or something? I can't get a 172 to spin at all, and a 152 needs to be coaxed into it.

a c-172 will not spin in my experience without keeping power-on, about 2,000 rpm's will work. moving the cg aft will also do that, but passengers are forbidden in the rear for spins. i know some who have stuck a 'case of oil' in the baggage compartment to help it to spin without power, but this also is not permitted. and remember, too, that the c-172 must be in the utility category for spins. a c-150/152 is the only cessna that i can get to spin completely power-off.

[SoCalAprch]

I did my initial PPL training in a 172 and I remember doing my stalls and all that happened was the nose dropped and it recovered on its own. Now the 152 thats been around the block a couple times hits a power on stall and it will (unless you have almost perfect cordination) take you for a ride. Told you to step on the ball!

[exleardriver]

also, with regards to spins, assuming within utility category gross weight/cg limits, the c-150/152 and c-172 will stop rotating after a couple turns without anti-spin control inputs if you simply release the controls..then you recover from the dive. a piper tomahawk, on the other hand, will not..you'll have to use anti-spin control inputs.

[bLizZuE]

Full aileron in the seminole during a wing drop from a power on stall...
Full nose down on a floating landing...
Stomping wrong rudder in a simulated engine failure(fun one)...

Nothing too drastic, all ending with 'My controls...'

[SRA_kbad]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

a c-172 will not spin in my experience without keeping power-on, about 2,000 rpm's will work. moving the cg aft will also do that, but passengers are forbidden in the rear for spins. i know some who have stuck a 'case of oil' in the baggage compartment to help it to spin without power, but this also is not permitted. and remember, too, that the c-172 must be in the utility category for spins. a c-150/152 is the only cessna that i can get to spin completely power-off.

I've spinned a 172sp(Utility) plenty of times. Of course you must keep the rudder deflected in the direction of the spin as well as hold some aileron in the same direction just to keep the aiplane stalled. As soon as the pressure on both control surfaces are relieved, the spin will stop. Fun Suff!!!