Teaching CFI applicants

[CamYZ125]

Hey guys,

I'll be a '2-year' CFI next month, and think I'm going to be teaching some CFI applicants. Obviously, I've never taught any CFI applicants and only have my own CFI training to look back on (which isn't too fresh in memory!), so I was hoping to get some advice, pointers, tips, etc. from those of you who have taught CFI and CFII applicants!

[BuickCFI]

have fun with them go outside of the box and teach them creatively, that is what i do

[cypilot77]

Originally Posted by CamYZ125

Hey guys,

I'll be a '2-year' CFI next month, and think I'm going to be teaching some CFI applicants. Obviously, I've never taught any CFI applicants and only have my own CFI training to look back on (which isn't too fresh in memory!), so I was hoping to get some advice, pointers, tips, etc. from those of you who have taught CFI and CFII applicants!

You can practice on me! i already started studying by myself. Start giving me ideas about what to study well and what not to pay too much attention.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by CamYZ125

from those of you who have taught CFI and CFII applicants

I've done four and probably won't do another. It's not nearly as rewarding as I thought it would be. Sometimes you spend a lot of time teaching them things they should have known as a private pilots, rather than super duper instructor stuff. I had one candidate who, on his checkride, didn't know how to tell if a sectional was out of date. Amazingly, he passed.

Sometimes their flying proficiency isn't up to PPL standards, either, and that makes it tough when they're anticipating only 10-15 hours in the airplane.

[exleardriver]

personally speaking, an initial cfi applicant is perhaps my favorite. as a senior, as well as 'career cfi', i like the opportunity to get someone on a great start. because i hold the cfi certificate in high regard, i do take pride in signing of these applicants. it's even more enjoyable once their 'tension' has passed and they have their certificate and one has the opportunity to mentor the new cfi. interestingly, because a fresh cfi has been so busy studying all the minutia, they refresh my own knowledge in a particular area in which i may have grown rusty from lack of use in teaching. that's a great give and take in my opinion.

[CamYZ125]

The instructor I had for my CFI was great, and I guess I just want to do as well as he did for my students. Honestly though, what I was taught during my CFI training, and what the checkride was like have very few similarities to the 'real world' experiences that I've had actually instructing students. Maybe I'm over simplifying it a bit much, but I feel like teaching a CFI applicant is really just transitioning them to the right seat and ensuring they can perform to commercial standards from that seat, as well as ensuring that they are knowledgeable enough and can explain their way through maneuvers and ground lessons.

I'm not personally too excited to take on the task of CFI applicants, especially since the program requires students to get their CFI, even though most probably never have any desire or intention to actually instruct.

[BuickCFI]

i never thought of it that way, but you are correct. I am personally not a fan of "simulated instruction" which is where i think you are going. but you can make it somewhat real life for them

[exleardriver]

if i can see that they have no real desire to teach, at least for a little while with some degree of professionalism, i let them know i'm not the instructor for them. if all they want is a sign-off for another certificate..move along..

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

if i can see that they have no real desire to teach, at least for a little while with some degree of professionalism, i let them know i'm not the instructor for them. if all they want is a sign-off for another certificate..move along..

i have a student like that now i think, at least that is the attitude i get from him

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

i have a student like that now i think, at least that is the attitude i get from him

think i'd pass the buick...err, buck, then..

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

think i'd pass the buick...err, buck, then..

no need now............

[mojo6911]

Sadly, I think it has become a dog and pony show with the FAA, and the luck of the draw. I think the best way to go about it is to try to get a gouge on the examiner and teach to HIS test.

[ClearedForOption]

One big thing that helped me is that I would give them a copy of my "bag 'o tricks" on the first day and ask them to make it into a binder so that when they go out into the real world they have something to reference to and add to as they go along... (with articles, things they find, other instructors tims, tricks, etc.)

Here a link to my "Bag 'O Tricks" - (which anyone is welcome to use... it's how to teach maneuvers, a syllibus, and a whole bunch of stuff ot help with the checkride so you as the applicant can teach your examiner)

Rich's CFI Folder - RAW PDF's... click on this link and right click on each to download

also... give them this to give to primary students on the first day - after a demo flight or somesuch: (a good primary on radio communication)

Just right click on me to download... Capt. Midnight's Guide to Talking on the Radio

Other than that... teach them to teach "by the book" - they are going to have to figure out what works for them in the end. I would try to teach them my own techniques for teaching something - but usually after I taught them how to do it "by the book." Usually a bunch of ground after the checkride where it's all about trying to show an applicant how to sucessfully keep a hobbiest interested in continuing to learn how to fly by making it fun and interesting while teaching them what they need to know - remember we all aren't going to become airline pilots - or space shuttle pilots - or whatever. Alot of my business was 25-70 year olds who getting their IFR ticket will be their highest achievement. Cash customers who showed thier appreciation for you in the form of the cold hard cash for your efforts. I would teach how to teach them how to teach safety - in a fun way so that people will keep coming back.

[exleardriver]

hi rich..haven't had a time to take a peek, but will. great to see a contribution like this from a member. very helpful when open-minded instructors exchange information and ideas..always made me do a better job to study with another cfi in the evenings over coffee long after the day's teaching ended. we had a blast and kept each other razor sharp. at any rate, looking forward to taking a look at what you've prepared.

[exleardriver]

outstanding document, rich..thanks for sharing your labor with this community. i haven't read it thoroughly for content, but am confident from initial scanning it that it's truly a fantastic training aid. great work!

[CamYZ125]

Thanks for the responses so far guys.

Next question:
Is the '2-year' from the month of my checkride, or the exact date. For example, I had my initial CFI ride on 11/21/05, does that mean I'm a '2-year' on 11/1/07, or 11/21/07? The regs say: 61.195(H)(2)(iii) "Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months."

Also, 61.195(H)(1) says "The ground training provided to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must be given by an authorized instructor who- (i) Holds a current ground of flight instructor certificate with the appropriate rating, has held that certificate for at least 24 months, and has given at least 40 hours of ground training"

I've been told by different people that only the signoff for the checkride has to be done by a '2-year' and that non-'2-year' CFI's can give ground and flight training to the applicant prior to the signoff. However, the above reg seems pretty clear to me that all of the training for the CFI applicant must be done by a '2-year'.

Thoughts?

[exleardriver]

Originally Posted by CamYZ125

Thanks for the responses so far guys.

Next question:
Is the '2-year' from the month of my checkride, or the exact date. For example, I had my initial CFI ride on 11/21/05, does that mean I'm a '2-year' on 11/1/07, or 11/21/07? The regs say: 61.195(H)(2)(iii) "Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months."

Also, 61.195(H)(1) says "The ground training provided to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must be given by an authorized instructor who- (i) Holds a current ground of flight instructor certificate with the appropriate rating, has held that certificate for at least 24 months, and has given at least 40 hours of ground training"

I've been told by different people that only the signoff for the checkride has to be done by a '2-year' and that non-'2-year' CFI's can give ground and flight training to the applicant prior to the signoff. However, the above reg seems pretty clear to me that all of the training for the CFI applicant must be done by a '2-year'.

Thoughts?

there is an exception..it's spelled out in the "or". see below:


(i) Meet the requirements of paragraph (h)(2) of this section; or
(ii) Have trained and endorsed at least five applicants for a practical test for a pilot certificate, flight instructor certificate, ground instructor certificate, or an additional rating, and at least 80 percent of those applicants passed that test on their first attempt; and
(A) Given at least 400 hours of flight training as a flight instructor for training in an airplane, a rotorcraft, or for a powered-lift rating; or
(B) Given at least 100 hours of flight training as a flight instructor, for training in a glider rating.

[exleardriver]

as to the first question, i've always interpreted (watch out) it in this case as 11/21/07 in your case. 11/1/07 would be less than 24 months. some might even argue you may commence on 12/1/07. in any case, i'd go with your actual date or err to the conservative and wait until 12/1/07. if anyone can provide him with a more definitive definition of '24 months', please provide a reference.

[ScoutFlyer]

Rich,

Thank you for sharing your work. I am a current CFI applicant and have been working on creating lesson plans and other teaching materials. It is great to finally get the opportunity to see a functional/working lesson plan. It will be a great help as I finish up my training. Thanks again.

[mojo6911]

Any CFI can give instruction to someone for the CFI checkride, but the applicant can't use that training as part of the requirement for the checkride. There is no minimum requirement for any amount of ground instruction for part 61, so you could receive ground training from any CFI and not log it, and then just receive and log a minimum amount of time from a 2 year CFI.

61.519(a) only requires the following to be logged:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

Any CFI can give instruction to someone for the CFI checkride

The FAA has said differently in the old Part 61 FAQs:

QUESTION: Our FSDO has come across a situation that seems to be a clear noncompliance issue with initial CFI training and we want to confirm our interpretation of the regulations.

§ 61.195(h) is the issue. Two local Part 61 training schools are taking the position that required training for the initial CFI can be given, in substantial part, by instructors that do not meet the two year/200 hour requirements of 61.195(h) ("senior instructors" in the local vernacular). As we read the regulation all instruction required for an initial CFI applicant has to be conducted by a CFI meeting the two-year/200 hour requirement.

Can a "junior" instructor can be used in preparing an initial CFI applicant, and if so, what limitations on their use would apply?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(h)(2); NO, a “junior” instructor cannot be used.

In accordance with § 61.195(h)(2), which states in pertinent part, ". . . who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must- . . . . held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months . . . have given at least 200 hours of flight training . . ."

The rule requires that the training resulting in the required endorsements for an initial flight instructor applicant must be given by a CFI who meets the requirements of § 61.195(h)(2). Notice that this question does not involve the requirements for an instructor serving in an FAA-approved school under § 61.195(h)(3)(ii).

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

The rule requires that the training resulting in the required endorsements for an initial flight instructor applicant must be given by a CFI who meets the requirements of § 61.195(h)(2). Notice that this question does not involve the requirements for an instructor serving in an FAA-approved school under § 61.195(h)(3)(ii).

I think this confirms what I posted earlier. They can receive the ground training, but it wouldn't count towards the requirement for the endorsement. If they are taking their CFI checkride under part 61, there isn't a minimum amount of ground hours required. What is to stop them from getting instruction from a "junior" CFI for X amount of hours, followed by ultimately getting ANY amount of ground instruction by a 2 year CFI and receiving the endorsement from the 2 year CFI?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

I think this confirms what I posted earlier.

I don't see how you can possibly derive that interpretation from the question and answer posted. The FSDO that posed the question explicitly asked about using a "junior" instructor and there was nothing offered to say that it was permissible in any circumstances. Had your training scenario been legitimate, it would reasonably have been mentioned in the answer. It wasn't. I cannot see how they could have made their position more clear.

What is to stop them from getting instruction from a "junior" CFI for X amount of hours, followed by ultimately getting ANY amount of ground instruction by a 2 year CFI and receiving the endorsement from the 2 year CFI?

Because it's a scam with the purpose of circumventing the intent of the regulation. Of what significance would this regulation be if junior instructors provided 20 hours of instruction, and a "Senior" instructor provided .5 hours and signed the candidate off for the checkride?

there isn't a minimum amount of ground hours required.

Or flight hours. But the answer to the question was phrased "the training resulting in the required endorsements", and didn't say "required training". If a guy gets 20 hours of instruction, then this was the instruction that resulted in the endorsement, or otherwise, the instruction would not have been given. QED.

There may be well FSDO's that don't care if this goes on. Personally, I'm not sure that a 24-month CFI is necessarily any more qualified to do the training than a 1-month CFI. Maybe less so.

Does your FSDO know and approve of this practice?

[mojo6911]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I don't see how you can possibly derive that interpretation from the question and answer posted. The FSDO that posed the question explicitly asked about using a "junior" instructor and there was nothing offered to say that it was permissible in any circumstances. Had your training scenario been legitimate, it would reasonably have been mentioned in the answer. It wasn't. I cannot see how they could have made their position more clear.

I specifically bolded the part of that interpretation that you posted. It says the training resulting in the endorsements for an initial flight instructor applicant must be given by a CFI who meets the requirements of § 61.195(h)(2).

The "junior" CFI cannot give them the instruction required for the . They are not qualified to do so, as it states. It doesn't say they can't give them ground instruction or training, period.

similar, but not parallel example, would be a private pilot helping a student pilot prepare for their exam. They are not allowed to give them bona fide instruction, but they can share their experience and definitely help them prepare.

Originally Posted by tgrayson

There may be well FSDO's that don't care if this goes on. Personally, I'm not sure that a 24-month CFI is necessarily any more qualified to do the training than a 1-month CFI. Maybe less so.

Does your FSDO know and approve of this practice?

I am not sure. I guess it would depend on which safety inspector I spoke to at the time. Also, why is the "old" Part 61 FAQ? From the disclaimer, it isn't official FAA opinion and is not legally binding. Do you have any court cases or anything that dealt with this matter? I am not trying to be stand-offish in any way, I would like to get a concrete answer on this that is supported by real legal opinion, instead of FSDO employees' opinion.

[exleardriver]

By omitting a precise number of hours of ground and flight instruction from an 'authorized instructor', the faa does appear to have inadvertently left a 'gray area' in the requirements for an initial cfi and who may provide the training. from my reading of the regs, personally, it's my belief that the intent is for a cfi meeting the 'authorization' requirements should give all of the ground/flight instruction, and that his/her endorsement reflects precisely that. i cannot envision that a fsdo would interpret otherwise. i've never given an endorsement for an instructor certificate in which i did not knowingly provide all of the required ground and flight instruction. whether or not that instruction was 'supplemented' by the actions of another instructor i am not aware. however, if they received my endorsement, they received all of the applicable /flight training requirements of 61.183, 185 & 187 from me in spite of anything else of which i was not made aware. those are the rules as i've always read and interpreted them. i've had no questions raised by faa inspectors who have given my cfi applicants checkrides. clearly, it would be easy to work around the 'intent' of this regulation were a senior instructor so inclined, but i won't do it.