Be carefull out there.

[USMCmech]

Don't second guess yourself.

If you aren't sure that a student is ready to solo, then don't let him go.

Long story short, I did, and now an airplane is busted. Everybody is OK, except for the pocketbook and some damaged pride.




Also, it doesn't matter how long you have been a CFI it can still happen to you.

[moxiepilot]

Don't sucumb to the pressure

sorry to hear it and glad everybodys fine.

[jrh]

Very, very sorry to hear this. It always makes me cringe to read about this kind of thing.

And you're right, it can happen to anybody. I'd be the first to admit I've made a lot of mistakes as a pilot and instructor, so I never look down on an instructor if something like this happens to him.

At least nobody got hurt, and I'm sure both you and your student are much wiser now because of it.

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by jrh

And you're right, it can happen to anybody. I'd be the first to admit I've made a lot of mistakes as a pilot and instructor, so I never look down on an instructor if something like this happens to him.

yep.

it just sucks having to see it happen to anybody, CFI or pilot. Sometimes even in the best case there was nothing to be done to prevent the mishap.

I guess the only other part I forgot to mention is do not let the student stop training because of it. Sure it might take a little time to get back on the horse, but it's not necessarily a reason to stop training.

I had one student soloing right before the checkride and he practiced soft field takeoffs, right off the side of the runway. it shook him enough to take a few months off. he ended up becoming certified, it took a while longer though because of the months off of not flying.

[Crockrocket94]

Ack!

Sounds bad!

Sorry to hear about the solo incident.

Any details?

[sdfcvoh]

We watched this one from the window the other day. I feel sorry for the front wheel strut. I didn't film the scariest part - the 100 ft dive toward the runway on short final.

[DE727UPS]

Sorry to hear. Soloing someone is one of the hardest things I've done in aviation. Glad I don't have to do it much, anymore.

[surreal1221]

Sorry to hear that. . .glad the pilot is alright.

Any idea on the lose of the aircraft? Did the student have renter's insurance?

[exleardriver]

damn. hate to read this for you and your student. i suppose i'm like you..no telling how many solo flights i've signed off in 15 years. we do our best to prepare them and in particular, make sure we've covered all fifteen of the pre-solo flight maneuvers, etc. sometimes things just happen..doesn't mean you didn't do your job. ever hear of a high-time pilot doing exactly the same thing? sure we have. why shouldn't we think that the low-time student doesn't risk the greatest probability of a flubbed landing?

in the final analysis, i'll bet the approaches you taught were indeed 'stabilized', as this one probably was as well. things can go wrong in less than a second in those final ten feet as we well know. i'm known to be an aggressive solo'er. i've been fortunate so far. like you said..important thing was that it was a 'walkaway'. my best to you.

[mojo6911]

I have a bad feeling every time I solo someone. I always fear the worse. I had one porpoise down the runway for about a 1000 feet and thought he was going to strike the prop. Luckily, he didn't. This was after repeated reminders to not pitch down during the flare.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mojo6911

pitch down during the flare.

That should make the pet peeve list.

[clumpinglitter]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

Don't second guess yourself.

If you aren't sure that a student is ready to solo, then don't let him go.

Long story short, I did, and now an airplane is busted. Everybody is OK, except for the pocketbook and some damaged pride.

Also, it doesn't matter how long you have been a CFI it can still happen to you.

Wow, sorry to hear this. As many times as I've imagined a mishap, it must be awful to have it actually happen. You're right, this can happen to anybody. Even with my limited instructing experience, I've seen plenty of students pull some ridiculous maneuvers that made me second guess whether they're ok to keep flying solo. It's hard to know where that line is sometimes. Don't be too hard on yourself.

-C.

[USMCmech]

The student freaked and tried to land at over 90 kts. He porposied 3000ft down the runway bouncing 7 times. He went of the side of the runway and ended up on the taxiway/ramp.

This guy was the most difficult studnet I've had yet, and I wasn't sure about soloing him. He made one bad landing that I had to save, at that point I should have not let him solo. However he then made three good landing, and I second guessed myself and let him fly.

The plane is trashed, but fixable. The nose wheel strut is broken off. The firewall is creased. The prop is bent from the seventh bounce, and the engine is a suddenstop.

[cfii2007]

Sorry to hear that....I am a nervous wreck every time one of my student solos. So far, they have all walked away in one piece.

[SoCalAprch]

Six months ago the same thing happened to me. I had a student who was supposed to go on her first solo xcountry but the weather wasn't good so she decided she would like to go do touch and gos instead. She bounced and porpoised down the center of the runway untill the nosewheel gave out. Prop strike and sudden stop was all that happened and the plane was up and flying again in 2 weeks. But watching it happened really changed me as an instructor. No unneccesary solo's anymore they get their 10 hours and meet all their solo requirements and they are done soloing...

[tgrayson]

bounced and porpoised down the center of the runway until the nose wheel gave out.

I have trouble believing that this can happen to pilots who accept nothing less than touching down at the approximate stalling speed of the aircraft, AKA a "full stall" landing. If your normal picture is having the nose of the airplane obscuring the runway ahead of you, the yoke all the way back, and the stall warning horn screaming, the picture you see when landing flat has got to look extremely wrong.

Yet 99% of aircraft I see land have all three wheels touch at the same time or, at best, the nose wheel within an inch of the ground. I remember seeing only two landings in the last 10 years that stood out in my mind because the nose was a 1-2 feet off the ground and the pilot held it there and then slowly lowered it to the ground. Both times I congratulated the pilot over the CTAF and you could tell he was proud. One of them almost ran off the runway in his pleasure at the compliment, according to his instructor.

This should be the norm, not the rarity, because even the PTS for the Private Pilot requires it.

[USMCmech]

When I teach the flare, I have them sit in the cockpit as I sit on the tail. I tell them "this is the correct sight picture for landing".

Another reason we should still be teaching in taildragers.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

But watching it happened really changed me as an instructor. No unneccesary solo's anymore they get their 10 hours and meet all their solo requirements and they are done soloing...

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think this is the best approach to take. I believe it's critically important to develop a student pilot's sense of independence and soloing them is an important training tool for that. Arbitrarily limiting their solo time to the bare minimum in order to limit your liability sends the message you don't trust them and could hinder their confidence.

I'd much rather have a student "ease their way" in to the real world by flying on their own, yet under my supervision, than to get their license and get thrown in to the process of making decisions entirely by themself.

I mean...you'd sign a student off to get a license, yet you wouldn't trust them to fly by themself? That just doesn't make sense to me. Give them good training, make sure they are meeting standards, and let them go.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

When I teach the flare, I have them sit in the cockpit as I sit on the tail. I tell them "this is the correct sight picture for landing".

Funny, me too! I thought I was the only one weird enough to be seen out on the ramp, hauling down on the tail with the line guy wondering if I need help moving a plane that's already in the tiedown spot...

Originally Posted by USMCmech

Another reason we should still be teaching in taildragers.

Indeed. In my limited experience teaching in tailwheel planes, this is one of the biggest problems most pilots have when trying to transition from tricycle gear to tailwheel--landing flat.

For those of you who haven't gotten a chance to fly tailwheels, landing flat will cause you to bounce, guaranteed. The more flat the landing, the higher the bounce, up to the point that sometimes you have to make a go around because the bounce is so bad and can't be salvaged.

Do that once or twice and they learn real quick that the nose *has* to be in the correct attitude before touchdown, or else they'll be going for another ride.

[SoCalAprch]

tgrayson I agree I am big on holding the plane off untill it doesnt want to fly anymore. I don't teach my students to flare I tell them to fly it into ground effect and hold it off untill the plane won't fly anymore. "Don't let it land untill its ready!" If you do this long enough the nose will come up and it will be a good landing. I don't word it as a flare in a cessna or piper. What happened to my student is that she said that when she went to level off in ground effect she hit all wheels and started to bounce. So she was either not paying attention or her sight picture was messed up.

As for the minimum on soloing. I agree that they should have as much real world experience as possible before taking the practical test. And thinking about what i wrote I really don't have too many problems with a student taking as much solo x-country time as he/she needs. I just don't see the need of doing hours upon hours of touch and goes. When this happened to my student she already had like 5 hours of solo time and was really progressing. The weather got bad and instead of doing her short x-country again she decided she would use that rental block to practice landings. Sounds reasonable but 1.6 in the traffic pattern takes alot out of anyone. I see it all the time at my airport as well. Students doing 1.8 in the traffic pattern and i honestly don't think its worth anything. Go on a cross country. Go explore...

And for the starter of this thread keep them in it anyway possible. I got her back up in the plane the next week and she is now just finishing up her multi-commercial. Stuff like this happens alot more than people think.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

tgrayson I agree I am big on holding the plane off untill it doesnt want to fly anymore.

I didn't intend the criticism to be towards you, which is why I removed your name from the quote box. But I do think that statistically, the reason that people bounce landings is because their instructors allowed them to get away with flat landings. The larger percentage of people who land flat all the time, the greater the frequency of bounced landings. And some of those people will wreck the airplanes.

I do agree that even the best-taught pilots will sometimes screw up.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I didn't intend the criticism to be towards you, which is why I removed your name from the quote box. But I do think that statistically, the reason that people bounce landings is because their instructors allowed them to get away with flat landings. The larger percentage of people who land flat all the time, the greater the frequency of bounced landings. And some of those people will wreck the airplanes.

I do agree that even the best-taught pilots will sometimes screw up.

I didn't take it as criticism towards me I was just agreeing with you that students are more or less flying the plane to the ground instead of landing (plane not flying anymore) properly. It doesnt matter if the wheels are on or off the ground if there is enough airflow going around the wings the plane is still flying. Just with the wheels touching the ground, not safe...