ME stalls for CMEL

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Gurus,
Need a little help here. Used the search function...but no joy. Here goes:

Background:
For the CMEL in the Seminole. For both a power on and a power off stall, the PTS clearly(notice how I state 'clearly' there) states that a stall should be recovered at the first indication of the stall. So, the Piper twins have this nifty little buzzer type of stall horn that goes off when an impending stall is on course to occur. I trained for my PMEL in a Seneca I and was taught to recover at the sound of the stall horn. Basically, never really let the plane develop into a 'real' stall. I am practicing the CMEL maneuvers now in the Seminole with an awesome flight instructor that is pretty impressive...I must add. He is training me to do the 'old school' stalls like you would do in a Cessna. Really let the thing stall and then recover. Which, is definitely impressive....UNTIL, one considers the consequences of an accidental spin entry occurring when you are out there pushing the plane to the limits.

The Question:
From your' collective experience, are the DPE's making your CMEL candidates take the Seminole into a full fledged stall with performing those maneuvers? Or, is the stall horn going off considered good enough? Again, the PTS states that "recover at the first indication of a stall." And, the way that I would read that is: The stall warning horn going off....recover.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[surreal1221]

Well, since I didn't fly a seminole, I can't really provide much. BUT

On my CMEL ride yesterday, we did a power off stall at 15 Degrees of bank, one to the first indication (stall horn), then one all the way to the buffet (didn't actually have the stall break, but none the less. . .the buffet was as close as I allowed it to go. Did two, not because the first one sucked, but he just wanted to make sure that I could point out the buffet.

[BajtheJino]

To me, one should make training as close to real as possible. Do them to the buffet or even do them until they break-keep the ball centered, big deal.
On your ride ask the examiner what he/she wants to see. Thats a sign of professionalism anyways, asking how people want things done instead of being lead around by the nose that is.

[Clocks]

I don't train past the buffet for CMEL. I do one with them so they see it's not a big deal, but that's just for their own experience.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

For the CMEL in the Seminole. For both a power on and a power off stall, the PTS clearly(notice how I state 'clearly' there) states that a stall should be recovered at the first indication of the stall.

The PTS actually says "recognizes and recovers promptly as the stall occurs"

[Clocks]

Isn't it set up so the PPL stalls are full, the commercials are to the buffets, and the ATP stalls are to first indication (horn, shaker, buffet, whatever)?

I actually know ATP is to first indication, and they have to announce "Stall horn" when they recover. Merit quoted the commercial PTS. Not sure about PPL, and too tired to look it up right now.

[Hernandezcfi]

Chewie, my advice...find out from how your particular examiner wants to see it. At my school, we use two examiners. One is happy with the buffet, one wants to feel the break. When training students, I have them bring it to the stall buffet. I just watch the ball like a hawk.

[Gonzo]

The examiner on my CMEL ride made me recover at red line.

[barnstormer09]

Ask the examiner.

I did my CMEL in a Seminole as well, and each instructor I flew with had a different opinion on what to do. The first one made me do the full stall, break, recovery, and the second told me first indication (stall horn, buffet, and redline speed)

The checkride I did it to the indications and recovered. The examiner I had was of the opinion that the PPL is when you do the hard stalls. By commercial, you should see it coming.

The ASA Commercial ME Oral Exam Guide suggests not to attempt hard stalls/spins in a low-wing aircraft because of their unfavorable characteristics. But Seminoles have better spin characteristics than you'd think.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by barnstormer09

But Seminoles have better spin characteristics than you'd think.

You can't spin one.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Again, the PTS states that "recover at the first indication of a stall."

No, it doesn't. It says this:

B. TASK: POWER-OFF STALLS (AMEL and AMES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.

6. Recognizes and recovers promptly as the stall occurs by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-level flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitudeappropriate for the airplane.

and this

C. TASK: POWER-ON STALLS (AMEL and AMES)

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.

6. Recognizes and recovers promptly as the stall occurs by simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power to maximum allowable, and leveling the wings to return to a straightand-level flight attitude, with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the airplane.

I teach full stalls, both power on and power off.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Damn did I really donk that up. Last time I'll ever quote the PTS without copy and pasting it....I guess my donked up PTS quote was what I really wanted it to say....instead of what it really does say.

Second thing that I learned here is that maybe what I was initially taught about the 'fear' of stalling a multi plane....just might be quite a bit overhyped. Seems that people have no problem with a full stall, stall to a buffet (not the Golden Corral), and stalls to the red line or to the horn. But, don't dreadfully fear stalling a ME aircraft...just be quite a bit more careful than with a 17 deuce.

Third thing I learned is that Meritflyer and tgrayson...for the first time in JC history....can agree on one point.

Thanks for the info guys.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Damn did I really donk that up. Last time I'll ever quote the PTS without copy and pasting it....I guess my donked up PTS quote was what I really wanted it to say....instead of what it really does say.

Hey, we all do that. I learned the hard way not to offer any interpretations on anything without looking directly at the text. It almost never reads the way I remember it. I've learned the most by trying to prove myself right, only to prove myself wrong.

'fear' of stalling a multi plane....just might be quite a bit overhyped.

Yep, completely uneventful. It would never be certified if stalls were dangerous. Even stalls with one engine inoperative are performed for certification and they must reasonably well-behaved to pass.

Whatever you can do with a SE you can do with a ME. I ask for power-off, full-stall landings, and have had students do slips to landing. Part of mastering the airplane, IMO.

Third thing I learned is that Meritflyer and tgrayson...for the first time in JC history....can agree on one point.

Since meritflyer grows in wisdom with each passing day, you will find him agreeing with me much more often.

[mojo6911]

I think you got the stall and the VMC Demo mixed up, Bryan. On the VMC demo, you will continue until you lose directional control, hear the stall warning horn, or feel the buffet.

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Well...I stalled that bitch to the break about 5 times today. Nothing to it. Thanks for all of the replies guys.

Naw, not the VMC demo. When I did my PMEL, the DPE made me do a full directional control loss. That is, after I 'tried' to get away with just the stall horn. We got about 10 mph below redline before I actually lost complete control. That was fun, but not sure that I will be doing that on a daily basis.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Well...I stalled that bitch to the break about 5 times today. Nothing to it. Thanks for all of the replies guys.

Naw, not the VMC demo. When I did my PMEL, the DPE made me do a full directional control loss. That is, after I 'tried' to get away with just the stall horn. We got about 10 kts below redline before I actually lost complete control. That was fun, but not sure that I will be doing that on a daily basis.

you could do that in a Seneca i think (can't remember vspeeds off top of my head) but not in a seminole. Vmc is stalled situation in the Seminole.

S.E. stalls in MEL = big no no for me!

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

you could do that in a Seneca i think (can't remember vspeeds off top of my head) but not in a seminole. Vmc is stalled situation in the Seminole.

S.E. stalls in MEL = big no no for me!

Seneca = Vmc 80, Vs 76, Vso 69

Published numbers. In reality, they are different.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by Chewie von Nubbins

Seneca = Vmc 80, Vs 76, Vso 69

Published numbers. In reality, they are different.

MPH? my POH is at the airport now, but i could of sworn Vmc on the II is 61kts, is there that much diff. between the I and II?

in the Seminole Vmc is right in the middle of Vs and Vso, unless it is an extremely low density alt. the seminole will take you stall every time on Vmca demo. Yes it should be called a Vmca demo IMHO

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Originally Posted by BuickCFI

MPH? my POH is at the airport now, but i could of sworn Vmc on the II is 61kts, is there that much diff. between the I and II?

in the Seminole Vmc is right in the middle of Vs and Vso, unless it is an extremely low density alt. the seminole will take you stall every time on Vmca demo. Yes it should be called a Vmca demo IMHO

Yep, MPH. Really threw me for a loop too when I started learning those Vspeeds. In the Seneca I, they published everything about it in MPH and that Airspeed indicator really jacked me up. I think they abandoned that MPH approach after the Seneca I, as that is the only plane I have ever seen that with.

[Blackhawk]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

You can't spin one.

Sure you can. Now recovering from the spin... maybe, maybe not.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I've learned the most by trying to prove myself right, only to prove myself wrong.

Yep.