Logging dual given from backseat

[777forever]

Can an instructor log dual given sitting in the backseat with two pilots rated in category and class in the front seats?

[Gonzo]

Yes. ATP used to do this.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Can an instructor log dual given sitting in the backseat with two pilots rated in category and class in the front seats?

Well, I was doing it just the other day in a PA-12 Piper Supercruiser, except there was only one pilot up front...it'd get REALLY tight if you tried to squeeze two in up there...

Now, could I give dual instruction in a PA-12 with me up front and two pilots in back? I think so!

Look up pictures and stats on the PA-12 if you're completely lost as to what I'm talking about.



All joking aside, I don't see any legit way for you to do what you're talking about. Call your FSDO and see what they have to say about it.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Yes. ATP used to do this.

When?

[Gonzo]

Instrument student with a safety pilot up front. CFII in the backseat can log dual.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

When?

My old instructor got his MEI and CFII in the late-90's at ATP.

[Clocks]

Heh interesting. The airplane must have two pilot stations...but I don't have to be at one of them?

61.195
(g) Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training.
(1) A flight instructor must perform all training from in an aircraft that complies with the requirements of §91.109 of this chapter.
(2) A flight instructor who provides flight training for a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part must provide that flight training in an aircraft that meets the following requirements—
(i) The aircraft must have at least two pilot stations and be of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate, that applies to the pilot certificate or rating sought.
(ii) For single-place aircraft, the pre-solo flight training must have been provided in an aircraft that has two pilot stations and is of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate.

[esa17]

I wouldn't log time from the back. You're just asking for trouble and I don't see it as worth it. In the unlikely event that you were caught I think you'd have a hard time getting your ATP afterwards. How many times do you find yourself in this position? Since I've had my PPL I can count on one hand the number of times I've been in the back seat of a plane, that minuscule amount of time won't make a lick of difference in my logbook anyway.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

My old instructor got his MEI and CFII in the late-90's at ATP.

Ahhh... gotcha... before my time.

[bLizZuE]

smells fishy

[butt]

If you're a CFI-A giving instruction in an airplane, you can log that time as both PIC and dual given. If you're sitting up front, in the back, or hanging off the landing gear, you can log it as such as long as you're giving instruction.

Now, if you're in the back sleeping, you can't log it. I admit, it'd be hard to prove if you were teaching or not, but theres' nothing inherently wrong with logging PIC/DG from the backseat.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by bLizZuE

smells fishy

It was and that is why they(and a few or flight schools) stop doing it.

[E6BAV8R]

Like butt said, there is no regs against logging Dual Given from the backseat.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Don't forget the 4 peple logging scenario - 2 pilots in the front, 2 CFIs in the back. All logging PIC.

[DE727UPS]

Somebody started a thread like this at APC. I said this sort of thing was highly unethical, though, I can also see the leeway in the way the regs are written.

Midlife, Tgrayson? Is this really legal? Can three people log multi-pic at the same time?

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Somebody started a thread like this at APC. I said this sort of thing was highly unethical, though, I can also see the leeway in the way the regs are written.

Midlife, Tgrayson? Is this really legal? Can three people log multi-pic at the same time?

Yes and no.

If you go with the way the rules are written, yes. One scenario that I think is legit works like this:

o Instrument Student in left seat - logs PIC as sole manipulator.
o Safety Pilot acting as PIC for the flight - logs PIC as a safety pilot who is acting as PIC
o CFI in the back seat (say he has no medical and can't act as PIC or be a safety pilot) - logs PIC as an instructor giving flight instruction.

The "no" comes in when you try to stretch it into situations where the three positions are completely unnecessary and there is a basis for the FAA to come in and and cry "Sham!" That's the same territory we're in when we discuss other types of instruction scenarios that sound more like playing with the rules to build time than legit activities.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Midlife, Tgrayson? Is this really legal? Can three people log multi-pic at the same time?

I've seen nothing that says "no". One could argue that the requirement for dual controls implies that the instructor should be sitting at one, but so far, there has been no letter of interpretation saying so.

I'm with Midlife in that if the FAA actually took a look at this, I bet they'd call it a sham.

[777forever]

Interesting, I think I'll call the local FSDO and ask them what they think

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Midlife, Tgrayson? Is this really legal? Can three people log multi-pic at the same time?

I was actually shown a scenerio where 6 people could log PIC.



I've only seen one really legit scenerio. It was a DPE with a broken ankle who gave a checkride from the backseat while the students CFI rode in the right seat.

[777forever]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

I was actually shown a scenerio where 6 people could log PIC.



I've only seen one really legit scenerio. It was a DPE with a broken ankle who gave a checkride from the backseat while the students CFI rode in the right seat.

A CFI can go along with a student on a checkride?

[USMCmech]

Originally Posted by 777forever

A CFI can go along with a student on a checkride?

Sure, if the DPE allows it.

I routinely observe the oral portion.



In this case the DPE broke his ankle two days before the checkride. Rather than cancel, he had the CFI ride in the front seat while he observed and directed the checkride from the back.

The CFI was suposed to sit there and say nothing, just be ready if the student lost controll.

The student passed

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by 777forever

A CFI can go along with a student on a checkride?

Absolutely! I've done it at GKY. It was an ATP checkride... and it was IMC out. The examiner would do the ride, but only with me as the CFI in the right seat. He would observe from the back. So... we filed a flight plan... and off we went.

Bob

[mhcasey]

Is anyone this desperate for time? Really?

How many posts lately on Jetcareers have been about cutting corners? My God, just do things how you know them to be legitimate and move on to the next step 3 days later.

Oh wait, my seniority number could be given away during those 3 days!!!

No offense 777, but this crap is starting to get old to me. Hopefully you're asking this out of pure curiosity and not actually formulating such a plan.

Originally Posted by 777forever

Can an instructor log dual given sitting in the backseat with two pilots rated in category and class in the front seats?

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

Yes and no.

If you go with the way the rules are written, yes. One scenario that I think is legit works like this:

o Instrument Student in left seat - logs PIC as sole manipulator.
o Safety Pilot acting as PIC for the flight - logs PIC as a safety pilot who is acting as PIC
o CFI in the back seat (say he has no medical and can't act as PIC or be a safety pilot) - logs PIC as an instructor giving flight instruction.

I want to point out that I agree with tgrey and midlife, but, here's a question to that scenerio -

why would there be need of a safety pilot in the first place? The CFI is not under the hood, only the instrument pilot. Is the CFI teaching the safety pilot how to be a safety pilot? I don't really think so. With the unecessary crewmember me thinks it would be hard to get away with this scenerio.

[mikecweb]

I know of one specific case that involved seaplane instruction.
Instructor didn't meet the insurance requirements. Owner and student up front. Instructor in back.