Student Refused to Solo Rant

moxiepilot · September 9th, 2007, 19:12

Having been in the pattern for a bit now, my student was ready to solo. He basically refused to solo because his father was not there.

While I understand that it is a big deal to solo, and to have others share in the experience IMHO this is BS.

At the very least, I could have been informed of this desire.

In the past the father has called my boss to refuse to pay for services rendered, which was also a BS scenerio, where the student actually learned how to troubleshoot determining if the alternator was working properly.

Anyway, I informed the student that if his father wants to be present for him to solo, he needs to start coming to the lessons, and pretty much left it at that.

Any thoughts?

jrh · September 9th, 2007, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

Anyway, I informed the student that if his father wants to be present for him to solo, he needs to start coming to the lessons, and pretty much left it at that.

Any thoughts?

Ahhh, the joys of instructing...

I've talked to students before about how I don't *really* mind if friends and family come out to watch them solo, but there are distinct advantages to soloing without a crowd at the airport.

The biggest factor is that I want to eliminate as much stress as possible for them on the "big day." I don't want them to feel pressured to prove something, or show off, or just get distracted because somebody important is watching them. I also tell them that this has nothing to do with them or their abilities, it's just that I know how pressure can do strange things to people. I have 1200+ hours and I still have a tendency to plop on the landing if a pretty girl is sitting next to me. It's just the way it is.

If they botch the first landing and get rattled, I don't want them feeling pressured to go around the pattern a few more times because their dad, or girlfriend, or whoever, is watching from the sidelines.

Also, as an instructor, I don't want to be the bad guy who as to tell the student, with all their family waiting for them, "Sorry, the crosswind is a little too strong today, you can solo some other time," or, "Sorry, your flying is like you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, let's do one more lesson to make sure you're ready." It's easy to say that kind of thing if it's just me and them, but having a crowd puts pressure on both of us.

So what you did is fine--tell the dad to start showing up to lessons and the student will solo when he solos. From a communication standpoint though, I'd encourage you to explain your reasons to both of them for saying what you're saying--that you don't want there to be any pressure on the day of solo, that things don't always work out as expected in aviation, etc. Make sure they don't get their hopes up too high.

Oh, and as for the student refusing to solo, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Sure, it's kind of a hassle and obviously poor communication, but try to see it from the student's point of view. Soloing is a big deal to him and he probably really wants to have his dad there to see the milestone. It's probably worth it to him to delay soloing for a few days so he can make sure his dad gets in on the action.

GlenWimpy · September 9th, 2007, 19:40

You work for him. He pays you. If he doesn't want to solo , then don't force him. If he wants the Pope present , then respect his wishes. He may just be using this as an excuse because he is a little apprehensive about soloing! Don't force him. Remember everything you put in his logbook is considered a legal document in a court of law. If he solos and has a mishap , the FAA will come to you first , and the lawyers will come for the logbook. So don't push him to solo.

If his father calls and complains , I would invite him to a lesson , let him fly in the plane , and win the father as a friend. If the father is CRAZY , then I would stop teaching the student altogether!

There are way to many happy customers to have to deal with crazy people!

MFT1Air · September 9th, 2007, 19:43

Quote:

In the past the father has called my boss to refuse to pay for services rendered, which was also a BS scenerio, where the student actually learned how to troubleshoot determining if the alternator was working properly.

Concur. . .I hope he paid.

Quote:

Anyway, I informed the student that if his father wants to be present for him to solo, he needs to start coming to the lessons, and pretty much left it at that.

Well, yes and no.

Firstly, I hope the guy knew in advance he was going to solo that day. If so, if he doesn't have his father present and he's simply practicing, that's his financial waste, IMHO. Additionally, yes. . .if it's a significant event for him, he does need to tell his father he'll be performing that activity, or he should understand he's simply wasting money with unneeded practicing.

t82 · September 9th, 2007, 21:10

JRH

You always have good advice. Keep it coming.

bradj2000 · September 9th, 2007, 22:26

kid sounds like a wuss to me.
does he have a lisp?

jrh · September 9th, 2007, 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by t82

JRH

You always have good advice. Keep it coming.

Hahaha...thanks!

I've just been playing this game for a while now and really like what I do. I didn't think anyone actually listened to me here.

Crockrocket94 · September 10th, 2007, 00:53

Of course we do.

People like you keep the uninitiated informed

juskl · September 10th, 2007, 11:12

I have found that if the student doesn't know when it will happen, they are more likely to solo sooner then if they know.... I never make it a point to schedule the solo as such..... If it happens that day great, if not, then, not...

Family and friends are a big stress..... they can come out later.... When the student is better.....

I had one of my students that was just horrible on the morning I was to solo him (and normally he is pretty good)..... amazing that when I told him "relax, I am not going to solo you today", he suddenly was doing landings like he was born into it...... So, I then had him drop me off and solo he did...... Very well actually..... Just a little bit of psychology in action.....

By the way, your buisness has the right to refuse service to anyone....especially obnoxious fathers...... Use it.....

Screaming_Emu · September 10th, 2007, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by juskl

I had one of my students that was just horrible on the morning I was to solo him (and normally he is pretty good)..... amazing that when I told him "relax, I am not going to solo you today", he suddenly was doing landings like he was born into it...... So, I then had him drop me off and solo he did...... Very well actually..... Just a little bit of psychology in action.....

By the way, your buisness has the right to refuse service to anyone....especially obnoxious fathers...... Use it.....

Yup, and I've had the opposite happen too. "show me 2 more like the last one and I'll get out" *slam*....mmmkay, lets try again tomorrow.

mikecweb · September 10th, 2007, 12:41

Yeah there is really nothing like springing it on them.
The look on their face when you start unbuckling your seat belt and opening the door is priceless.

Also if your a fatass like me they'll never want to fly with you again.

aviatorrbt · September 10th, 2007, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlenWimpy

You work for him. He pays you. If he doesn't want to solo , then don't force him. If he wants the Pope present , then respect his wishes. He may just be using this as an excuse because he is a little apprehensive about soloing! Don't force him. Remember everything you put in his logbook is considered a legal document in a court of law. If he solos and has a mishap , the FAA will come to you first , and the lawyers will come for the logbook. So don't push him to solo.

If his father calls and complains , I would invite him to a lesson , let him fly in the plane , and win the father as a friend. If the father is CRAZY , then I would stop teaching the student altogether!

There are way to many happy customers to have to deal with crazy people!

If this is student is mature enough to be PIC, he should be mature enough to tell the CFI that he does not feel ready... Everyone - even pilots - get flustered, nervous, and anxious, we shouldn't have to make excuses... I don't think this student was any of that, but his ideals of go/no go should not be because of anyone else. This student could get into serious trouble if he listened to his dad everyday that he was going flying. What if his dad wanted to take off when it was 18kts gusting 25 right away after he got his ticket? He may be influenced to go....

moxiepilot · September 10th, 2007, 13:34

I sincerely appreciate the responses and wanted to address parts and clarify too.

I agree that as a PIC being influenced by outside pressures is poor decision making (that yes, his father could pressure him to do something) I want to make sure to point this out to him. And on the other hand, I think he is showing PIC responsibility by saying, "No, mr. instructor, I am not flying solo." Kudos to him for that.

I usually take the approach of not dictating the day they will solo. There are too many variables - wind, student performance - all as mentioned. But, they do know it is coming. The student even asked a few days prior and my response was, "you will be soloing very soon." IMHO it wasn't as if he didn't see it coming. It shows me lees than optimal communication skills. That was the reason I had mentioned the previous incident. The father has never communicated with me. The student is very non-verbal. I do my best to flush things out, this just happend to be a scenerio I hadn't even thought of.

I also agree it is a major milestone and wanting to have family / friends present. But also there is that spectator value of increasing the nerves. And I do not like that. Students mess up enough already, they (and I) don't need one more thing.

-jrh - everybody has a problem landing when a pretty girl is sitting up front.

Thanks for all the response, just needed to vent last night

Murdoughnut · September 10th, 2007, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlenWimpy

You work for him. He pays you. If he doesn't want to solo , then don't force him. If he wants the Pope present , then respect his wishes. He may just be using this as an excuse because he is a little apprehensive about soloing! Don't force him. Remember everything you put in his logbook is considered a legal document in a court of law. If he solos and has a mishap , the FAA will come to you first , and the lawyers will come for the logbook. So don't push him to solo.

If his father calls and complains , I would invite him to a lesson , let him fly in the plane , and win the father as a friend. If the father is CRAZY , then I would stop teaching the student altogether!

There are way to many happy customers to have to deal with crazy people!

Yes, but the customer service relationship is a bit skewed when your arse is on the line if they F up. It wasn't a matter of the kid not feeling ready, he just wanted an audience. If I were a CFI, I would think that I would strongly recommend against having friends/family there for the reasons mentioned.

GlenWimpy · September 10th, 2007, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murdoughnut

Yes, but the customer service relationship is a bit skewed when your arse is on the line if they F up. It wasn't a matter of the kid not feeling ready, he just wanted an audience. If I were a CFI, I would think that I would strongly recommend against having friends/family there for the reasons mentioned.

If I thought he was a kid , or not mature , I would never let him solo. I never let anyone solo early. I had a man and wife that owned their on airplane. She soloed way before him. That didn't go over well with him , but later he thanked me!

You can be firm , and control the situation without being a Dictator and condescending. If you bust their confidence , they'll never solo. I have had people tell me they want someone to see them solo. I would respond by telling them when they are close to soloing. Its a once in a life time experience , let them share and film the process. Its about him not you. I never soloed anyone , and stood there and said to myself 'SELF , YO ARSE IS ON THE LINE". Soloing a student , is like flying " Never get your self into something you can't get out of!"

If you prepared them correctly and documented there logbook , then you should have confidence in them soloing!

moxiepilot · September 10th, 2007, 21:13

Yeah, so the dad came in today and called me a "bully" and a "punk."

Sorry but I find it a little amusing with how this played out. After the dad said what he had to say I thanked him for his choice words, indicated that finding a dedicated instructor not moving on is tough to find, pointed out that I will be eligible for MCFI in a month and am in the process of submitting the information (explaining what that is), and told him that I hope his son continues training with us, but not with me, thank you very much.

The kicker of it was I had a prospective student waiting to see me while the student was preflighting, so I basically said that since he had no confidence in me the conversation was pretty much over, and I needed to meet with someone who valued my services.

I'm sure this post comes across as a little calous or egoist (which really is not me, I'm just bad getting at all the details tonight), but I'll tell you - sometimes it sure feels good to say, " thanks, but I will survive without your business, good day."

Unfortunately the conversation then went 3 (unpaid) hours and after seening my side of things, the kid and father want his training to continue with me. Sheesh. What a day.

Clocks · September 10th, 2007, 23:53

Hey if you can afford it, there's no rule against "firing" your customers

MFT1Air · September 11th, 2007, 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

Yeah, so the dad came in today and called me a "bully" and a "punk."

Sorry but I find it a little amusing with how this played out. After the dad said what he had to say I thanked him for his choice words, indicated that finding a dedicated instructor not moving on is tough to find, pointed out that I will be eligible for MCFI in a month and am in the process of submitting the information (explaining what that is), and told him that I hope his son continues training with us, but not with me, thank you very much.

The kicker of it was I had a prospective student waiting to see me while the student was preflighting, so I basically said that since he had no confidence in me the conversation was pretty much over, and I needed to meet with someone who valued my services.

I'm sure this post comes across as a little calous or egoist (which really is not me, I'm just bad getting at all the details tonight), but I'll tell you - sometimes it sure feels good to say, " thanks, but I will survive without your business, good day."

Unfortunately the conversation then went 3 (unpaid) hours and after seening my side of things, the kid and father want his training to continue with me. Sheesh. What a day.

That's both scary and smooth. Kudos to you for your restraint. My initial impression would be to cuss him out quickly, but if I got through the initial bashing of my persona without escalating the confrontation (as I'm inclined sometimes to do), the conversation may have been civil and productive. It's nice to have win-win situations, and I believe you accomplished this in the end.

It's weird about people sometimes, but I think you handled that very well.

DE727UPS · September 11th, 2007, 00:48

"so the dad came in today and called me a "bully" and a "punk."

Serious? That's no way to treat a professional. I'd tell the dad to find another CFI.

Think about it. It's your call. But it's entirely possible that you could be doing the profession a big favor by suggesting that the kid pursues another career field.

Maximillian_Jenius · September 11th, 2007, 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradj2000

kid sounds like a wuss to me.
does he have a lisp?

I assure you that I'm no wuss, and I have no lisp! Now what?

moxiepilot · September 11th, 2007, 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

I assure you that I'm no wuss, and I have no lisp! Now what?

lol nice. we know you're not a wuss.

Chewie von Nubbins · September 11th, 2007, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximillian_Jenius

I assure you that I'm no wuss, and I have no lisp! Now what?

Umm.... Do you carry a man bag?

Do your loafers not weigh as much as the average pair should?

flyhigh · September 11th, 2007, 19:56

Moxie, I can see your side of the story. I think that it's the kid's big day and he wants to make it special. I wouldn't pressure the kid into doing something that moment which is a huge event in one's flying career (I never said you did pressure the kid into going solo, but just throwing that idea out there). Let him decide when he is ready.

Maybe the kid would have jitters thinking of his dad being on the side of the runway, but nobody knows until it happens.

I'm no CFI but just wanted to throw my thoughts out there.

Maximillian_Jenius · September 11th, 2007, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

lol nice. we know you're not a wuss.

Thanks. I hate stupid uneducated stereotypical assinine comments like that.

Stating that any guy who is weak or scared has a lisp or is gay, as if being gay or even straight denotes ones level of masculinity!

ryanmickG · September 11th, 2007, 23:32

I find the best way to solo someone is away from the home airport. I know most people disagree with this method but it seems to make people much more comfortable.

When you're at your home base the student gets the feeling that their friends/fellow training buds are watching and it makes them more nervous.

Having parents and boyfriends or girlfriends there is a BAD idea. I guess I try to immulate what my solo and what my instructor did to me. We went to a small uncontrolled field about 10 miles south of GKY. I was the only one in the pattern and it was early morning so the air was glassed over. We did a few landings and my instructor told me to clear the active, gave me a few words of advice and jumped out.

It was a great expierence and being all by myself at the airport made it kinda a personal spiritual one. (I know that sounds corny)

I just think it kinda cheapins the moment when their is a bunch of friends and family taking pictures and screaming and clapping every landing.

Remember the first solo is one of the biggest things one can acomplish. They will remember that day forever. I know I will.

September 9th, 2007, 19:12	#1
moxiepilot Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CFI / CFII in PA Posts: 2,712	Student Refused to Solo Rant Having been in the pattern for a bit now, my student was ready to solo. He basically refused to solo because his father was not there. While I understand that it is a big deal to solo, and to have others share in the experience IMHO this is BS. At the very least, I could have been informed of this desire. In the past the father has called my boss to refuse to pay for services rendered, which was also a BS scenerio, where the student actually learned how to troubleshoot determining if the alternator was working properly. Anyway, I informed the student that if his father wants to be present for him to solo, he needs to start coming to the lessons, and pretty much left it at that. Any thoughts?

September 9th, 2007, 19:40	#3
GlenWimpy Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Memphis Posts: 401	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant You work for him. He pays you. If he doesn't want to solo , then don't force him. If he wants the Pope present , then respect his wishes. He may just be using this as an excuse because he is a little apprehensive about soloing! Don't force him. Remember everything you put in his logbook is considered a legal document in a court of law. If he solos and has a mishap , the FAA will come to you first , and the lawyers will come for the logbook. So don't push him to solo. If his father calls and complains , I would invite him to a lesson , let him fly in the plane , and win the father as a friend. If the father is CRAZY , then I would stop teaching the student altogether! There are way to many happy customers to have to deal with crazy people!

September 9th, 2007, 21:10	#5
t82 Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 112	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant JRH You always have good advice. Keep it coming.

September 9th, 2007, 22:26	#6
bradj2000 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Corona, CA Posts: 274	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant kid sounds like a wuss to me. does he have a lisp?

September 10th, 2007, 00:53	#8
Crockrocket94 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: In a place warmer than State College.. for now. Posts: 896	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant Of course we do. People like you keep the uninitiated informed __________________ Craig CFI-CFII-MEI www.logshare.com/log.jsp?email=craigcrocker1@yahoo.com

September 10th, 2007, 11:12	#9
juskl Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 253	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant I have found that if the student doesn't know when it will happen, they are more likely to solo sooner then if they know.... I never make it a point to schedule the solo as such..... If it happens that day great, if not, then, not... Family and friends are a big stress..... they can come out later.... When the student is better..... I had one of my students that was just horrible on the morning I was to solo him (and normally he is pretty good)..... amazing that when I told him "relax, I am not going to solo you today", he suddenly was doing landings like he was born into it...... So, I then had him drop me off and solo he did...... Very well actually..... Just a little bit of psychology in action..... By the way, your buisness has the right to refuse service to anyone....especially obnoxious fathers...... Use it.....

September 10th, 2007, 12:41	#11
mikecweb Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: KBOS Posts: 2,871	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant Yeah there is really nothing like springing it on them. The look on their face when you start unbuckling your seat belt and opening the door is priceless. Also if your a fatass like me they'll never want to fly with you again. __________________ Why run a company when you can destroy it - George Gonzalez When three failed airlines on a resume just isn't enough.

September 10th, 2007, 13:34	#13
moxiepilot Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CFI / CFII in PA Posts: 2,712	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant I sincerely appreciate the responses and wanted to address parts and clarify too. I agree that as a PIC being influenced by outside pressures is poor decision making (that yes, his father could pressure him to do something) I want to make sure to point this out to him. And on the other hand, I think he is showing PIC responsibility by saying, "No, mr. instructor, I am not flying solo." Kudos to him for that. I usually take the approach of not dictating the day they will solo. There are too many variables - wind, student performance - all as mentioned. But, they do know it is coming. The student even asked a few days prior and my response was, "you will be soloing very soon." IMHO it wasn't as if he didn't see it coming. It shows me lees than optimal communication skills. That was the reason I had mentioned the previous incident. The father has never communicated with me. The student is very non-verbal. I do my best to flush things out, this just happend to be a scenerio I hadn't even thought of. I also agree it is a major milestone and wanting to have family / friends present. But also there is that spectator value of increasing the nerves. And I do not like that. Students mess up enough already, they (and I) don't need one more thing. -jrh - everybody has a problem landing when a pretty girl is sitting up front. Thanks for all the response, just needed to vent last night

September 10th, 2007, 21:13	#16
moxiepilot Old Skool Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: CFI / CFII in PA Posts: 2,712	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant Yeah, so the dad came in today and called me a "bully" and a "punk." Sorry but I find it a little amusing with how this played out. After the dad said what he had to say I thanked him for his choice words, indicated that finding a dedicated instructor not moving on is tough to find, pointed out that I will be eligible for MCFI in a month and am in the process of submitting the information (explaining what that is), and told him that I hope his son continues training with us, but not with me, thank you very much. The kicker of it was I had a prospective student waiting to see me while the student was preflighting, so I basically said that since he had no confidence in me the conversation was pretty much over, and I needed to meet with someone who valued my services. I'm sure this post comes across as a little calous or egoist (which really is not me, I'm just bad getting at all the details tonight), but I'll tell you - sometimes it sure feels good to say, " thanks, but I will survive without your business, good day." Unfortunately the conversation then went 3 (unpaid) hours and after seening my side of things, the kid and father want his training to continue with me. Sheesh. What a day.

September 10th, 2007, 23:53	#17
Clocks Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hired 11/07. Furloughed 10/08 Posts: 1,240	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant Hey if you can afford it, there's no rule against "firing" your customers __________________ How many times are YOU going to vote for Obama?

September 11th, 2007, 00:48	#19
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,550	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant "so the dad came in today and called me a "bully" and a "punk." Serious? That's no way to treat a professional. I'd tell the dad to find another CFI. Think about it. It's your call. But it's entirely possible that you could be doing the profession a big favor by suggesting that the kid pursues another career field. __________________ Click here to see how I became a UPS pilot http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/65/132/

September 11th, 2007, 19:56	#23
flyhigh Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 616	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant Moxie, I can see your side of the story. I think that it's the kid's big day and he wants to make it special. I wouldn't pressure the kid into doing something that moment which is a huge event in one's flying career (I never said you did pressure the kid into going solo, but just throwing that idea out there). Let him decide when he is ready. Maybe the kid would have jitters thinking of his dad being on the side of the runway, but nobody knows until it happens. I'm no CFI but just wanted to throw my thoughts out there.

September 11th, 2007, 23:32	#25
ryanmickG Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 1,918	Re: Student Refused to Solo Rant I find the best way to solo someone is away from the home airport. I know most people disagree with this method but it seems to make people much more comfortable. When you're at your home base the student gets the feeling that their friends/fellow training buds are watching and it makes them more nervous. Having parents and boyfriends or girlfriends there is a BAD idea. I guess I try to immulate what my solo and what my instructor did to me. We went to a small uncontrolled field about 10 miles south of GKY. I was the only one in the pattern and it was early morning so the air was glassed over. We did a few landings and my instructor told me to clear the active, gave me a few words of advice and jumped out. It was a great expierence and being all by myself at the airport made it kinda a personal spiritual one. (I know that sounds corny) I just think it kinda cheapins the moment when their is a bunch of friends and family taking pictures and screaming and clapping every landing. Remember the first solo is one of the biggest things one can acomplish. They will remember that day forever. I know I will.

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