Logging PIC time question

[centralhome]

I have a Private Pilot student that is working on his Instrument. He does not have a Complex or High performance sign-off.I let him go with me on a trip last night in a Bonanza A36. Can he log that as Dual Received AND PIC, even though he does not have that sign off?

Thanks

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by centralhome

I have a Private Pilot student that is working on his Instrument. He does not have a Complex or High performance sign-off.I let him go with me on a trip last night in a Bonanza A36. Can he log that as Dual Received AND PIC, even though he does not have that sign off?

Thanks

Yes. He has a SEL and is therefore rated in the aircraft, so he can log the time. However, he cannot act as PIC until he has those endorsements.

[E6BAV8R]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Yes. He has a SEL and is therefore rated in the aircraft, so he can log the time. However, he cannot act as PIC until he has those endorsements.

To add to that, he can log the Dual Received and PIC time when you are with him; he can not go solo in the airplane without the complex and/or HP.

Just clearing that up for Tgrayson

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

he can not go solo

What is different about "cannot go solo", and "cannot act as PIC"?
They are one in the same.

[exleardriver]

What is different about "cannot go solo", and "cannot act as PIC"?
They are one in the same.

together, you may both log pic. you log the dual given pic, he logs the dual received pic, as he is the sole manipulator of the controls. he may not fly the aircraft solo and thus log pic 'solo' until he has received those endorsements.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by exleardriver

together, you may both log pic. you log the dual given pic, he logs the dual received pic, as he is the sole manipulator of the controls. he may not fly the aircraft solo and thus log pic 'solo' until he has received those endorsements.

But he is not acting as PIC when he is logging the PIC without the endorsements. He cannot. That was my point.

[clestudentpilot]

According to 61.51(e)(1)(i) "A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges." Because of this, the "student" may log PIC time since he is a private pilot and is rated in the aircraft, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Just because he could not go solo in this aircraft has nothing to do with logging PIC...logging and acting PIC are different. Along the same lines, 61.51(e)(3) says "An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor." Could the student have flown in this airplane without the instructor...no, therefore the instructor is acting as an authorized instructor and may log PIC time as well. Nosehair, I hope this clears it up that acting as PIC and logging as PIC are not the same. You are correct he could not act as PIC, but the regs say he can log PIC.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by clestudentpilot

Nosehair, I hope this clears it up that acting as PIC and logging as PIC are not the same. You are correct he could not act as PIC, but the regs say he can log PIC.

OK, originally, tg said this, which I agree with and it answers the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgrayson
Yes. He has a SEL and is therefore rated in the aircraft, so he can log the time. However, he cannot act as PIC until he has those endorsements.

To add to that, he can log the Dual Received and PIC time when you are with him; he can not go solo in the airplane without the complex and/or HP.

…and then E6B added “he cannot go solo” to the “he cannot act as PIC” statement from tg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E6BAV8R
he can not go solo

What is different about "cannot go solo", and "cannot act as PIC"?
They are one in the same.


…and so I wanted to point out that “cannot act as PIC” is the same as “cannot go solo”.


I know he can LOG it as PIC without endorsements as long as he is not acting as PIC.

I’m not talking about the difference in logging and acting, I am saying ACTING and SOLOING are the same.

OK, I don’t actually mean literally they are the same. They are the same as far as having all the required endorsements and currency, etc. ACTING PIC and SOLO.

[E6BAV8R]

Originally Posted by nosehair

OK, originally, tg said this, which I agree with and it answers the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgrayson
Yes. He has a SEL and is therefore rated in the aircraft, so he can log the time. However, he cannot act as PIC until he has those endorsements.

To add to that, he can log the Dual Received and PIC time when you are with him; he can not go solo in the airplane without the complex and/or HP.

…and then E6B added “he cannot go solo” to the “he cannot act as PIC” statement from tg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E6BAV8R
he can not go solo

What is different about "cannot go solo", and "cannot act as PIC"?
They are one in the same.


…and so I wanted to point out that “cannot act as PIC” is the same as “cannot go solo”.


I know he can LOG it as PIC without endorsements as long as he is not acting as PIC.

I’m not talking about the difference in logging and acting, I am saying ACTING and SOLOING are the same.

OK, I don’t actually mean literally they are the same. They are the same as far as having all the required endorsements and currency, etc. ACTING PIC and SOLO.

…and then E6B added “he cannot go solo” to the “he cannot act as PIC” statement from tg.

I didn't necessarily mean to directly add to tg's statement, but was clearing up that the time he 'could' log is PIC time, since TG didn't specifically say PIC.

What is different about "cannot go solo", and "cannot act as PIC"?
They are one in the same.

Yes, they are.

I know he can LOG it as PIC without endorsements as long as he is not acting as PIC.

...and that is what we are referring to. He can log PIC because is acting as "sole manipulator" definition of PIC, but he can not log PIC because of "acting", that is what the instructor is there for.

OK, I don’t actually mean literally they are the same. They are the same as far as having all the required endorsements and currency, etc. ACTING PIC and SOLO.

I believe you answered your own question. He can not ACT PIC without the endorsements, so no, he can not go solo without the endorsements. However, when flying with an instructor, he can log PIC because even though he is not "acting PIC", he is PIC because he is rated for make and model and is the "sole manipulator".

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

I believe you answered your own question.

I have no question, here, E6B. I was trying to point out to you that acting as PIC and going solo are the same.

I think we are tripping up on the word "acting".

From your recent post, you use the phrase 'acting as sole manipulator', and I think youmay be thinking that this is 'acting as PIC', but it is not, in regulatory speak.

Acting as PIC means you ARE the PIC. The term 'acting as sole manipulator' is not used in the regs.

For Logging PIC:
61.51(e)(1)(i) "Is the sole manipulator of the controls..."

All the regs that speak to the qualifications for being the pilot in command read like this: 61.57 Recent flight experience; "No person may act as pilot in command..."

61.31 Endorsements: "No person may act as pilot in command..."


So, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Acting as pilot in command requires all the same qualifications as you have to have to go solo.

Not to log it, but to act it. Acting is not as in "acting out like you are the PIC by manipulating the controls".

Yeah, you may be 'acting' or 'pretending', and 'in training' and 'logging' PIC, but you are not 'acting pic' as is meant in the regs.

The person who is the acting pic IS the pic and must be all qualified to be so.

[E6BAV8R]

I understand what you are saying, I guess I just said it wrong; I knew what I ment