Upwind leg of Traffic Pattern

[777forever]

The AIM says not to turn crosswind until within 300 ft of TPA. I was always taught 500ft agl. I thinking climbing 700 feet on upwind would make some big huge patterns and waste time. How does everyone else do their traffic patterns?

[Cessnaflyer]

300' before TPA can be a stretch for some small trainers when they are fully loaded. Most of the TPAs here in Washington are about 800' so we usually begin crosswind turns at 400' AGL.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by 777forever

The AIM says not to turn crosswind until within 300 ft of TPA. I was always taught 500ft agl. I thinking climbing 700 feet on upwind would make some big huge patterns and waste time. How does everyone else do their traffic patterns?

Part of the logic is (probably) to have the aircraft at a known altitude on the downwind, making it easier to spot by aircraft joining the pattern. Having an aircraft still climbing on the downwind leg would be somewhat unexpected.

BTW, the leg prior to the crosswind is the departure leg, not the upwind.

[amorris311]

ummm if you look in the aim they label it as the upwind.


marcus you not getting 1000fpm in those seminoles in the texas heat?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by amorris311

ummm if you look in the aim they label it as the upwind.

Uhm, if you look at the AIM, the upwind is the leg on the opposite side of the runway from the downwind; it's the leg you'd use in a go-around. (Figure 4-3-1).

1. Upwind leg. A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing.
2. Crosswind leg. A flight path at right angles to the landing runway off its takeoff end.
3. Downwind leg. A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the opposite direction of landing.
4. Base leg. A flight path at right angles to the landing runway off its approach end and extending from the downwind leg to the intersection of the extended runway centerline.
5. Final approach. A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.
6. Departure leg. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.

[moxiepilot]

i love it. someone else who actullay uses the correct terminology of departure leg. pet peeve of mine calling it the upwind leg.

[Stoney]

I had a DE make me look that up about four years ago. He ask that question to a student of mine on a private pilot check ride. The student couldn't answer him or find it in the AIM.

So my student came out of the class room and found me and said,, HE want's to speak with you. I thought that was a short oral.

I walk in and he asks me the question. I say 500ft off the top of my head.
Wrong........Wrong........ So he asked me to find it were it says 500.

I said know problem stand by one..... Ahwww it's 300 ft before you turn X-wind.

[butt]

Originally Posted by amorris311

ummm if you look in the aim they label it as the upwind.


marcus you not getting 1000fpm in those seminoles in the texas heat?

The AIM lists it as departure leg, but the Jepp books, every single tower controller, the DE I got my ratings with, and all my instructors up through CFII have called it upwind. This is one of those cases when everyone is wrong. The same goes for saying "looking for traffic" as opposed to "negative contact"...

[amorris311]

you are right. i have been cramming both books in. the jep says it is the upwind leg and the aim has it as the departure leg. my apologies. i stand corrected.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by butt

The AIM lists it as departure leg, but the Jepp books, every single tower controller, the DE I got my ratings with, and all my instructors up through CFII have called it upwind.

Yes, 19/20 pilots will refer to the departure leg as the "upwind". To be fair, it was listed so in the old Flight Training Handbook. I don't know whether it was a misprint or the nomenclature was changed. Still, those same people will often join the traffic pattern on the wrong side and call it an unwind entry. Can't have it both ways.

[mhcasey]

My understanding is in the good ole' days, most TPA's were 800AGL, so 500AGL brought you within 300'. Then some wise guy came around and starting raising TPA's to 1000agl and screwed everything up. Then some old school guy editing the AIM decided to get back at the wise guy by making him fly to 700AGL before turning xwind. Could be an old wives' tale though. Gotta tell ya, the extra altitude might be nice, but I'm not sure I'll be excited about the extra distance should I lose my engine on x-wind...

Here's another one: How many of you guys overfly the field and enter downwind directly? I'll have to look back at the AC on this, but I think I've almost been taken out by about 10 such knuckleheads this month.

Me: "N12345 left downwind midfield on the 45 for 18."
Bonanzadriver: "OK traffic on downwind we're entering downwind midfield from the west. Do you have a visual on us?"
Me: Perfect. Another great opportunity for a head on collision. "Nope don't see you, but I think we're to your right and we're on the standard entry, so we'll take the lead and why don't you guys make a right turn so we don't hit each other."

The amazing thing is that this seems to happen more often when there are 6 or more planes in the pattern than when nobody is around.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by mhcasey

Here's another one: How many of you guys overfly the field and enter downwind directly? I'll have to look back at the AC on this, but I think I've almost been taken out by about 10 such knuckleheads this month.

The FAA doesn't offer that as an alternative, bu the AOPA guide to untowered airports does.

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by butt

The AIM lists it as departure leg, but the Jepp books, every single tower controller, the DE I got my ratings with, and all my instructors up through CFII have called it upwind. This is one of those cases when everyone is wrong. The same goes for saying "looking for traffic" as opposed to "negative contact"...

Sorry, but Jepp has many minute inaccuracies throughout their materials and the AIM is the FAA publication; I'm sticking to my guns on Departure leg since I can prove with FAA material this is what it is termed.

All those people who call it the upwind leg are wrong, those who call it the departure leg are correct. We all know what they mean, but it is clear the difference between the two legs.

[Dazzler]

I teach that you make your first turn at 700 AGL, where the TPA is 1000 AGL, in accordance with the AIM.

Also, I've heard many controllers say things like "Extend your upwind..." when we know they mean "Extend your departure leg"

[777forever]

Oh yeah its the departure leg, had an examiner yell at me for saying upwind. Before I became an instructor and looked things up I've always been taught 500 agl then turn. In the pattern here at Hooks nobody is going up to 700 agl. I mean for sake of time and landing repetitions for students I think 500 agl is sufficient. I think we would do vx on climb out everytime if we had to go to 700 agl.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by mhcasey

Me: "N12345 left downwind midfield on the 45 for 18."
Bonanzadriver: "OK traffic on downwind we're entering downwind midfield from the west. Do you have a visual on us?"
Me: Perfect. Another great opportunity for a head on collision. "Nope don't see you, but I think we're to your right and we're on the standard entry, so we'll take the lead and why don't you guys make a right turn so we don't hit each other."

The amazing thing is that this seems to happen more often when there are 6 or more planes in the pattern than when nobody is around.

There is the problem with overflying the field for a downwind entry - not the geographical point of entry, but the agressive jumpin'-in-line kinda guy who does it to cut in fron of an already established pattern entry.

When you deviate from the recommended procedure, you take on the responsibility of being dang sure you are not posing a hazard to others who are following book recommended procedure.

[bLizZuE]

Departure, upwind, same difference.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by bLizZuE

Departure, upwind, same difference.

Not when you're on the departure leg and someone else calls on the upwind. Is he above you? below you? in front? in back? off to the side where he ought to be?

[Dazzler]

Originally Posted by bLizZuE

Departure, upwind, same difference.

Not when you're on a checkride!

[bLizZuE]

I highly doubt an examiner would care if you use 'upwind' or 'departure'.

highly.

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Not when you're on the departure leg and someone else calls on the upwind. Is he above you? below you? in front? in back? off to the side where he ought to be?

Thats when you ask

[Pilot Hopeful]

Originally Posted by 777forever

Before I became an instructor and looked things up I've always been taught 500 agl then turn. In the pattern here at Hooks nobody is going up to 700 agl. I mean for sake of time and landing repetitions for students I think 500 agl is sufficient.

If safety is not an issue, why not comply with AIM guidelines and climb to 300' below TPA? Perhaps such a practice might convince other pilots and instructors to adopt the change and underscore the importance of following recommended procedures.

Practically speaking, 500' AGL might be sufficient, as might 400' AGL or even 300' AGL. However, instructing students to comply with values not supported by the AIM could be problematic and could convey a sense of carelessness or disregard for official recommendations.

As instructors, we must be careful of how our students might interpret any action. If they see that climbing to only 500' AGL saves time, they might be tempted to save time by also forgoing proper pattern entry techniques or omitting certain checklists deemed unnecessary.

Remember, the AIM provides standard operating practices intended to enhance the safety of flight. I prefer to comply with such guidelines at the expense of flight efficiency.

[KQ7]

Originally Posted by nosehair

There is the problem with overflying the field for a downwind entry - not the geographical point of entry, but the agressive jumpin'-in-line kinda guy who does it to cut in fron of an already established pattern entry.

When you deviate from the recommended procedure, you take on the responsibility of being dang sure you are not posing a hazard to others who are following book recommended procedure.

What about entry into non standard traffic patterns?

[flyboy6585]

The AIM isn't regulatory in nature. Therefore if you want you can turn x-wind at 500 feet. Just as where you enter the pattern is advisory. I am not saying that we, as pilots, shouldn't follow the AIM, just that you don't have to follow it.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by KQ7

What about entry into non standard traffic patterns?

What do you mean?