Turns in the traffic pattern

[Aviator_Bakeek]

This one is for the CFI's...

Do you always have to make standard rate turns in the traffic pattern? Is it regulatory or just good safe practice? Are there times when a non-standard rate turn is acceptable in certain configurations or speed and would not necessarily cause I safety of flight condition?

[E6BAV8R]

If you look up Traffic Patterns in the AIM (which I dont have on me), I am pretty sure it says Left Hand turns are required in traffic patterns - unless otherwise specified in the AFD/sections/advised by a tower.

However, at a Tower-controlled airport, you can request right-turns in the pattern to help the student familiarize with what it looks like to fly a right-hand pattern as well as approach and landing while making a base and final turn.

[Aviator_Bakeek]

Yeah...thats helpful...but I was asking about the rate of turn...not the direction.

[firebirdswm]

I would think that under VFR conditions, any turns would be acceptable, not just standard rate. I do agree though that it would be good practice to get into the habit of making standard rate turns if you go beyond PPL.



edit - Just realized this was directed to CFIs. I'm just a PPL. Take it at what it's worth.

[bdhill1979]

For my students I don't so much care about the rate, but the angle of bank. I tell them not more than 30 degrees of bank in the pattern. The reason for this is that after 30 degrees the overbanking tendency kicks in and often students will not even realize that they are cross controlling the airplane trying to counter the overbanking tendency.

Also excessive bank will decrease the vertical component of lift and the descent rate will be less controlled.

I would say don't worry at all about the rate. Every lap in the pattern and approach is different. Winds, Traffic, density altitude, etc.... will require the pilot to make adjustments constantly. In VFR you really have no need for it.

Just turn what you need to make the pattern smooth and controlled.

[DE727UPS]

30 degree bank.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

Do you always have to make standard rate turns in the traffic pattern?

The normal rule-of-thumb for traffic patterns is to limit your bank angle to 30 degrees, due to the increase in stall speed with larger bank angles.

Standard-rate turns are pretty much an instrument flying sort of thing.

[moxiepilot]

I agree with BDHill. I usually impose a limit on students who lack control of the aircraft to 20 degrees or less.

The only students who need to go to 30, 35 are the ones who are up in a strong wind, and that usually means I'm with them.

[bdhill1979]

Originally Posted by moxiepilot

... and that usually means I'm with them.

In the easy bake oven

[Clocks]

I also teach a maximum bank of 30 degrees.

[BuickCFI]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I also teach a maximum bank of 30 degrees.

same here

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by bdhill1979

In the easy bake oven

thank gawd i've only got 1 student in that darn airplane now...

[dc3flyer]

I always taught 30 degrees of bank

[MarkE]

I don't teach but was taught no more than 30 degrees of bank.

[surreal1221]

No more than 30. . .

And a great article concerning this type of thing. . .(Steep turns).

http://www.avweb.com/news/leadingedg..._195220-1.html

Of course, one must be a registered Avweb user (free).

[nosehair]

I suspect you are using an improper phrase of "standard rate turn".

That is an instrument turn limited to a turn rate of 3 degrees per second.

The bank angle for this rate of turn is varied by the speed of the aircraft.

At normal training speeds of 60 -75 knots, the bank angle would be about 10 degrees or less. You cannot fly a "standard" pattern with that small of a bank angle.

You probably are using the tem "standard" in the sense of a *30* degree bank.

Are you?

[Mavmb]

Originally Posted by Aviator_Bakeek

This one is for the CFI's...

Do you always have to make standard rate turns in the traffic pattern? Is it regulatory or just good safe practice? Are there times when a non-standard rate turn is acceptable in certain configurations or speed and would not necessarily cause I safety of flight condition?

Nobody should be doing IFR standard rate turns in the traffic pattern. A traffic pattern is vfr and no one should be staring at the instruments. people need to be looking outside, turn however much is needed. if you can't turn without stalling or causing danger, you shouldn't be flying or have a solo sign off.

[exleardriver]

this one's been beaten to death, but one more vote for < 30 degrees of bank. i agree with most everyone's rationale above. i like to see about 20 degrees in general. for one thing, it's more considerate with respect to passengers.

[bLizZuE]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I also teach a maximum bank of 30 degrees.