Wow! (OK, a little sarcastic)

[GalaxyIFE]

So I came across this ad:

XXXXXXX Aviation is a full service FBO. Flight Training, Charter, Maintenance. FAA Part 141 Approved, VA eligible. We are seeking low to mid-time CFI's (300-700 hours TT) for full time employment. Emperical evidence virtually guarantees full student load within two weeks. Highest pay in the Bay Area (Up to $16/hour, minimum wage guaranteed). Full benefits package available after one year employment.

The part that makes me sick is this: "minimum wage guaranteed"....wow, where do I sign up? It makes me want to puke.

[NickH]

Is the highest CFI pay in the bay area really UP TO $16 an hour?

That's less than the starting pay at my school..

[moxiepilot]

LOL, sign me up

[jrh]

I *love* what is happening these days. Seriously!

With this so-called pilot shortage going on, it's tough for any school to find or retain experienced CFIs. It's fantastic that we're able to laugh at $16/hour as supposed "high pay" nowadays, because a few years ago, that actually would have been competitive.

I see these days as the time for CFIs across the industry to say, "Ummm...thanks, but no thanks," to offers like these. There is no reason a decent CFI should have to work for less than $25/hour anymore. What is the client/flight school going to do? Look for another CFI instead? Ok...go ahead and try--there simply aren't many CFIs out there to pick from.

It feels great to be a valued commodity, rather than just another guy with ten guys in line behind me, ready to take my place if I leave. A few years ago I would have worked for $16/hour not because it's fair, but because I'd know if I turned it down somebody else would have taken it, and I couldn't do better anywhere else. Now the tables have turned. I *could* do better elsewhere, and there *aren't* guys lining up for that sort of pay anymore.

We (CFIs) have a lot of schools over a barrel right now. There's no reason not to take advantage of it and require higher pay. And I'm not even talking about being greedy, or trying to screw over flight schools for no reason. I'm talking about raising our pay to where it should have been all along, but could never be reached because of market forces until now. We can finally make an "above poverty line" living doing this stuff. This is an exciting time for pro CFIs!

[Wolfy]

I found the school that ad was for, but the link is dead. I've also never heard of them, which surprises me for a school in the Bay Area.

[Crockrocket94]

Personally I think CFI's should be paid no less than 20 per hour ANYWHERE. Unfortunatly, the fact that people WILL work for squat wages hurts everyone.

[E6BAV8R]

Yeah well the flight school I work at pays CFIs $12/hour. It is a 141 program part of our university which screws the few of us that finish our ratings early and have no where to go but CFI at the school while we still finish our degrees at our campus.

[akaFlyboy 4]

And yet people who risks their lives (Police, Fire/EMS) or those whol try and teach overcrowded class rooms holding the future of our world can not wait to work in their choosen career field long enough to make 16 bucks an hour.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

Yeah well the flight school I work at pays CFIs $12/hour. It is a 141 program part of our university which screws the few of us that finish our ratings early and have no where to go but CFI at the school while we still finish our degrees at our campus.

I don't know your particular situation, so I don't want to act like I have all the answers for you, but I bet you could find a better way.

The school is not screwing anyone, those people are screwing themselves. They're the ones agreeing to work for $12/hour. They have plenty of places to go aside from the university.

And that was the point of my first post--CFIs used to be a dime a dozen and if we wanted to fly, we'd have to take whatever we could get, no matter how low the pay. The market forces of supply and demand dictated it. The current environment isn't like that. We're in demand now, so we get a bigger say in setting the rules.

Are there no other FBOs or flight schools in your area that pay better? How about breaking away from your university and freelancing? There aren't any aircraft owners in your area wanting to train in their own plane?

This problem is all a matter of deciding what you're worth and making it happen. And I'm not criticizing you by saying that. I'm speaking from experience.

I used to work for a college flight program making $14/hour. I used to work for a flying club making $15/hour. I know what it's like.

Eventually I reached a point where I said to myself, "Screw this, I'm worth more than $15/hour." I decided I simply wouldn't accept a flying job for $15/hour. I'd find some other way to support myself, be it inside aviation or outside the industry. I'm a smart guy, I knew I'd find a way to survive.

Shortly after deciding all this, I was offered a CFI job, already set up with as many students as I could handle, but the pay was $15/hour and the boss said pay wasn't negotiable. I wished him good luck with the summer rush and walked out without hesitation.

I started hanging around my local airport more and before I knew it I was freelancing for $30/hour. I made $170 yesterday and I didn't even work the full day. I decided I am worth $30/hour, so that's what I make now.

It's all about setting standards and drawing a line. Would you work for $3/hour? Of course not. How about $6? No? Ok, how about $12? Yes? Ok, I guess that's where you drew your line, at $12/hour. I drew mine at $25/hour and I'm seriously thinking of raising it again. I'd rather walk away than work for less. That's just the way it is...I've got bills to pay, and if I can't pay them through CFIing, I'll find another way.

A few years ago I would've priced myself out of business with such an attitude because everybody would've picked the cheaper guy. Now, with everybody shorthanded on CFIs, they have to take me up on my offer, since they can't get anybody else. And that's why I'm excited!

[jrh]

Originally Posted by akaFlyboy 4

And yet people who risks their lives (Police, Fire/EMS) or those whol try and teach overcrowded class rooms holding the future of our world can not wait to work in their choosen career field long enough to make 16 bucks an hour.

So? How is that my problem?

If there were a shortage of teachers or police officers, they could command higher pay. But there is no shortage, so pay stays low. If a given teacher or police officer isn't satisfied with their career (pay + QOL + personal satisfaction + job location + health benefits + ...), they ought to look in to other options for their life.

I think the overall "package deal" of a CFI's life could be pretty decent if paid properly.

I'm not here to debate the value in society of flight instructors versus civil servants. I'm just calling pay like I see it.

[Doug Taylor]

Remember, that's not $16/hr for every hour you're at work, like a normal 9 to 5 job.

Often, when I was a CFI, I'd be at the office from 7am to 7pm and only make $25. Some days zero, other days I'd join the heralded "triple-digit" club, but $16/hr as a CFI and $16/hr as a teacher are apples and oranges.

Both fruit, yes, but apples and oranges.

[aviategw]

Originally Posted by jrh

I *love* what is happening these days. Seriously!

With this so-called pilot shortage going on, it's tough for any school to find or retain experienced CFIs. It's fantastic that we're able to laugh at $16/hour as supposed "high pay" nowadays, because a few years ago, that actually would have been competitive.

I see these days as the time for CFIs across the industry to say, "Ummm...thanks, but no thanks," to offers like these. There is no reason a decent CFI should have to work for less than $25/hour anymore. What is the client/flight school going to do? Look for another CFI instead? Ok...go ahead and try--there simply aren't many CFIs out there to pick from.

It feels great to be a valued commodity, rather than just another guy with ten guys in line behind me, ready to take my place if I leave. A few years ago I would have worked for $16/hour not because it's fair, but because I'd know if I turned it down somebody else would have taken it, and I couldn't do better anywhere else. Now the tables have turned. I *could* do better elsewhere, and there *aren't* guys lining up for that sort of pay anymore.

We (CFIs) have a lot of schools over a barrel right now. There's no reason not to take advantage of it and require higher pay. And I'm not even talking about being greedy, or trying to screw over flight schools for no reason. I'm talking about raising our pay to where it should have been all along, but could never be reached because of market forces until now. We can finally make an "above poverty line" living doing this stuff. This is an exciting time for pro CFIs!

Unfortunatetly, it's not that simple.

Speaking as a CFI, I'd love to see higher wages. I AGREE that CFIs do not make enough money for what they do.

Speaking as a flight school, I can't pay CFIs any higher wages because the guy/school/facility across the runway will soon put me out of business if I do.

It's a bit more complex than walking into the flight school's office and demanding to be paid more because you feel you deserve to be paid more.

[Crockrocket94]

yeah i vow for salary based CFI lifestyles

none of this 7am to 11pm only billing 5 hrs

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by Crockrocket94

Personally I think CFI's should be paid no less than 20 per hour ANYWHERE. Unfortunatly, the fact that people WILL work for squat wages hurts everyone.

Keep that in mind when filling out those Virgin, Skybus and jetBlue apps.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by aviategw

Speaking as a CFI, I'd love to see higher wages. I AGREE that CFIs do not make enough money for what they do.

Speaking as a flight school, I can't pay CFIs any higher wages because the guy/school/facility across the runway will soon put me out of business if I do.

I can't speak to the specifics of your location/situation, but I don't believe that's true for most places.

I see flight school prices similar to how people see auto gas prices. Remember a couple years ago how analysts were saying as soon as gas prices rise above $3/gallon everyone will quit driving? Well, they're at $3.10/gallon just down the street from me right now and people haven't changed their driving habits one bit. They adjusted to the higher prices and dealt with it.

Same can be said for aircraft rental rates or instructor fees/pay rates. The client won't notice much, if any of a difference between paying $120/hour for plane + a CFI getting paid $15/hour versus paying $130/hour for plane + a CFI getting paid $25/hour. It's a small jump in the whole scheme of things. In fact, the client might very well like the more expensive arrangement better if the CFI is a higher quality teacher. Over the course of 60 hours of flight training, the customer is looking at a difference of $600, or less than 10% of the total cost. Anybody who looks at the *value* of that training should see it as money well spent.

The longer I do this, the more I see how important reputation, customer service skills, marketing, organization, etc. are to keeping a business alive. If one targets the right type of customer, provides great service, and many other factors, they can run a successful business.

CFI pay (or lack thereof) will not make or break an otherwise solid business. Nobody blinks an eye if rental rates jump $10/hour every couple years, so why is it so crazy to think instructor pay shouldn't jump up a bit too? Develop a good product, pass the expense on to the client, and everything will work fine.

Originally Posted by aviategw

It's a bit more complex than walking into the flight school's office and demanding to be paid more because you feel you deserve to be paid more.

Not really. I consider myself to be a good quality instructor who would be an asset to any flight school. If they really want to pinch pennies and hire somebody else for $10/hour cheaper, that's fine with me. I don't mind walking away and finding somebody who will compensate me more appropriately. I'd much rather work for somebody who recognizes that extra loyalty, technical proficiency, and people skills are well worth an extra $10/hour. All I can say is that if somebody pays me well, I'll give them their money's worth. For me, that meant freelancing when the local flight school wouldn't budge on their pay scale. I couldn't be happier, and I think the flight school missed out on a good teacher.

I don't *have* to do this teaching thing any more. I have enough time to go fly cargo, or go to a regional, or whatever. I'm done building time. I teach because I enjoy it and it fits in to my lifestyle at the moment. When a person stops viewing teaching as a way to build time and starts looking at it as a job in and of itself, it takes on a different meaning.

But really, the bottom line all goes back to what a person is willing to accept. If I never accept a job working for less than $25/hour, I won't ever be complaining about working for less than $25/hour, now will I? That seems simple to me.

[E6BAV8R]

Originally Posted by jrh

I don't know your particular situation, so I don't want to act like I have all the answers for you, but I bet you could find a better way.

The school is not screwing anyone, those people are screwing themselves. They're the ones agreeing to work for $12/hour. They have plenty of places to go aside from the university.

Like I said, those of us that got our ratings done early and still have classes to take on campus are in the bind. I finished my ratings and I still have another year and a half of classes to take at my local university of which I am taking 16 hours at this semester. I am at a place where we are somewhat segregated between two larger cities and there really isn't anything within an hour of us. There is 1 very small flight school next to us at our airport, maybe 2 airplanes, but as you can imagine it doesn't take but 1 or 2 instructors to satisfy them.

Are there no other FBOs or flight schools in your area that pay better? How about breaking away from your university and freelancing? There aren't any aircraft owners in your area wanting to train in their own plane?

There are a very aircraft based on the field but they are mostly just weekend warriors.

This problem is all a matter of deciding what you're worth and making it happen. And I'm not criticizing you by saying that. I'm speaking from experience.

I used to work for a college flight program making $14/hour. I used to work for a flying club making $15/hour. I know what it's like.

Eventually I reached a point where I said to myself, "Screw this, I'm worth more than $15/hour." I decided I simply wouldn't accept a flying job for $15/hour. I'd find some other way to support myself, be it inside aviation or outside the industry. I'm a smart guy, I knew I'd find a way to survive.

Shortly after deciding all this, I was offered a CFI job, already set up with as many students as I could handle, but the pay was $15/hour and the boss said pay wasn't negotiable. I wished him good luck with the summer rush and walked out without hesitation.

I started hanging around my local airport more and before I knew it I was freelancing for $30/hour. I made $170 yesterday and I didn't even work the full day. I decided I am worth $30/hour, so that's what I make now.

It's all about setting standards and drawing a line. Would you work for $3/hour? Of course not. How about $6? No? Ok, how about $12? Yes? Ok, I guess that's where you drew your line, at $12/hour. I drew mine at $25/hour and I'm seriously thinking of raising it again. I'd rather walk away than work for less. That's just the way it is...I've got bills to pay, and if I can't pay them through CFIing, I'll find another way.

A few years ago I would've priced myself out of business with such an attitude because everybody would've picked the cheaper guy. Now, with everybody shorthanded on CFIs, they have to take me up on my offer, since they can't get anybody else. And that's why I'm excited!

I completely agree. At my school people are in a bind because the closest airport/FBO with good pay is atleast an hour drive away from us. I guess it is me but I am not about to go to classes 8am - 1pm every day and drive an hour to instruct a few students and drive home. I could stand that for maybe a month before I got sick of it. It is all about convenience for me being a college student.

I have friends that want to get their PPL but they are in college and don't have the money for it right now. My last job paid $6/hour and I worked 20 hours a week. Now that I have my CFI I want some resemblence of instructing while being able to still fly without having to pay for it any longer. This was the best way for me. You can bet if I didn't go to school I'd be out of there in a heartbeat.

[jrh]

Originally Posted by E6BAV8R

I completely agree. At my school people are in a bind because the closest airport/FBO with good pay is atleast an hour drive away from us. I guess it is me but I am not about to go to classes 8am - 1pm every day and drive an hour to instruct a few students and drive home. I could stand that for maybe a month before I got sick of it. It is all about convenience for me being a college student.

I have friends that want to get their PPL but they are in college and don't have the money for it right now. My last job paid $6/hour and I worked 20 hours a week. Now that I have my CFI I want some resemblence of instructing while being able to still fly without having to pay for it any longer. This was the best way for me. You can bet if I didn't go to school I'd be out of there in a heartbeat.

That's understandable. A person has to look at every job as an overall package deal and decide for them if it's worth it or not. It sounds like you decided it was worth it for you to work for your university, and that's fine.

My only advice though, is not to complain about low pay if you're continuing to work there. It's one thing to be an airline captain with 15 years seniority complaining about low pay, because he's deeply tied to his company through seniority and can't realistically leave for better options. Us CFIs are in a different game...we can come and go from our jobs as we please. Ask yourself, "Can I do any better than where I'm currently at?" If the answer is yes, go jump on whatever opportunity is better. If the answer is no, then there isn't much reason to complain--you've already got it as good as it's going to get.

My decision to not accept certain jobs has worked out very well for me, but for other people it might just leave them unemployed and bitter. It all depends on how desperate the market is for CFIs in their area. YMMV.

[moxiepilot]

Originally Posted by aviategw

Speaking as a flight school, I can't pay CFIs any higher wages because the guy/school/facility across the runway will soon put me out of business if I do.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you.

I don't want to put the actual ##'s up, but in order to make some money the FBO charges the total expenses incurred from running the operation PLUS:

aircraft = +30%
instructors = +56%
gas = +15%
jetA = +16%

In effect, the cost of subsidizing the aircraft fleet is floated on the instructor margin of profit, aircraft and gas; i.e. charge $45 for instruction and pay the instructor $15, $5 goes to the loans and the rest is strictly profit. The same operation could be run by paying the instructor $35, $5 to loans and $5 profit instead of $25.

Overall it's a half million dollars in profit per year after all expenses paid. This is at an FBO with 9 planes, 5 FT instructors, 3 PT instructors.

The only way I'd believe you couldn't pay your instructors better is if you're not taking any cut and they are getting everything the customer is paying for their services.

Otherwise, I'd say that either your argument holds no water, or a new business model is in order at your place...

[NickH]

What about Maintenance? Remember the flight school has to support their $60,000 a month loss...

(Not sure if you're talking about a specific FBO or just in general, but speaking from my experience......)

[moxiepilot]

I was using a particular FBO with a good business model.

Instructor rates pay for the plane loans + profit after expenses.
Airplane rates pay for maintenence + profit after expenses
Gas pays for .....

The margin is huge enough to not drop a dime and keep everyone happy.

[NickH]

That would be a good business model. I speak from the perspective of an FBO which has only recently started to make any profit, mainly from the flight department supporting the line and maintenance departments overall, not just covering maintenance on flight school airplanes.

[JEP]

Originally Posted by GalaxyIFE

So I came across this ad:

XXXXXXX Aviation is a full service FBO. Flight Training, Charter, Maintenance. FAA Part 141 Approved, VA eligible. We are seeking low to mid-time CFI's (300-700 hours TT) for full time employment. Emperical evidence virtually guarantees full student load within two weeks. Highest pay in the Bay Area (Up to $16/hour, minimum wage guaranteed). Full benefits package available after one year employment.

The part that makes me sick is this: "minimum wage guaranteed"....wow, where do I sign up? It makes me want to puke.

I think there may be some miscommunication......

I would read that is you will be guaranteed a minimum wage.....and not you will be guaranteed the minimum wage.

Maybe along the lines of salary plus commision..... I doubt it is minimum wage in the sense of the federal min. wage of $5.** something an hour or whatever it is now.

[nosehair]

Originally Posted by aviategw

Speaking as a flight school, I can't pay CFIs any higher wages because the guy/school/facility across the runway will soon put me out of business if I do.

It's a bit more complex than walking into the flight school's office and demanding to be paid more because you feel you deserve to be paid more.

...hmmm, I don't think anybody got that.

[taildragger173]

In the bay area there are many independent contract flight instructors who get to charge market rate (50/hr+) and have a high student load doing that. The difference is that you have to find your own students and there are no benifits. This arrangement has worked out well for me and others.