Obstacle Departure Procedure Question

[Louie1975]

OK folks:
Took my brand new IFR student on a x-country. We filed IFR from Castle Airport(KMER) to Fresno Chandler(KFCH), which is non-towered. Weather was CAVU, as is usually the case here in the San Joaquin Valley this time of year. We also filed for the return trip as well. While setting up for the approach at Chandler, the approach controller told us we could get our clearance for the return trip while on the ground at Chandler just by contacting her on the freq. We did that, and were instructed to report airborne. Then we took off for our return trip to Castle.
Now, my question is, was I required to follow the ODP as instructed on the airport diagram? We took off on RW 30, which pretty much put us on heading to our first fix. So I assumed a straight out departure. The ODP for RW 30 states: climb heading 345 degrees to 1000' before proceding on course. Which would have required a right turn, and only after passing 400 agl, which would have been 680'msl. I did NOT follow the ODP, but just continued straight ahead until TPA and then turned toward our fix. Please help!

[B767Driver]

Operating under Part 91, the AIM gives the pilot discretion to either follow the ODP or take some other type of obstruction clearance action after departure. Under Part 135/121, operations specificiations issued to the operator typically require the ODP to be flown precisely as published.

Personally, under Part 91...in VMC...I would proceed on course visually avoiding obstructions. In IMC...I would fly the ODP.

[Champcar]

You are expected to fly the ODP if you are not given any other departure instructions. This is your only way of obstacle obstruction.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Champcar

You are expected to fly the ODP if you are not given any other departure instructions. This is your only way of obstacle obstruction.

Champ, like Mike said previously I think you should add "If in IFR conditions...", since your Mach 1 eyeballs is an approved method of obstacle avoidance when VMC, at least for Part 91 operations.

[cfii2007]

I didn't know there were any obstacles at MER.........

[flyguy]

I think he was talking about the obstacle DP out of Chandler, but MER has one too, and no there are no obstacles. Pissed me off a bit that we were always asked to fly the DP. Off of 31 you have to make a climbing right 180 to overfly El Nido VOR, then on course. So if you are flying from MER to anywhere north, you have to take off, make a 180, fly over HYP, then make another 180, fly back over MER, then on you're way. You could easily and very safely takeoff straight out to MOD VOR. I've requested that prior to departure, but they always tell me I have to make that request with Norcal, and they sometimes don't hand me off to Norcal until I'm half-way to HYP. [/rant]

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

Operating under Part 91, the AIM gives the pilot discretion to either follow the ODP or take some other type of obstruction clearance action after departure.

Personally, under Part 91...in VMC...I would proceed on course visually avoiding obstructions. In IMC...I would fly the ODP.

AIM 5-1-2 also suggests to maintain IFR proficiency, "pilots are urged to practice IFR procedures, whenever possible, even when operating VFR.

I suggest to all my instrument students to fly the ODPs when available for practice. It only adds to one's ability, capability, and proficiency.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by flyguy

I think he was talking about the obstacle DP out of Chandler, but MER has one too, and no there are no obstacles. Pissed me off a bit that we were always asked to fly the DP. Off of 31 you have to make a climbing right 180 to overfly El Nido VOR, then on course. So if you are flying from MER to anywhere north, you have to take off, make a 180, fly over HYP, then make another 180, fly back over MER, then on you're way. You could easily and very safely takeoff straight out to MOD VOR. I've requested that prior to departure, but they always tell me I have to make that request with Norcal, and they sometimes don't hand me off to Norcal until I'm half-way to HYP. [/rant]

Is it for noise abatement?

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

AIM 5-1-2 also suggests to maintain IFR proficiency, "pilots are urged to practice IFR procedures, whenever possible, even when operating VFR.

I suggest to all my instrument students to fly the ODPs when available for practice. It only adds to one's ability, capability, and proficiency.

No argument there.

[flyguy]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

Is it for noise abatement?

Nope, the only noise abatement (which isn't even published in teh AFD) is off to the west over the town of Atwater. They allow straight out departures all the time under VFR.

[subpilot]

Be careful at Chandler, There are a lot of things to fly into around there.




hahaha

[Louie1975]

Some Odd things about it:

-I know even though it does not specifically say in the ODP, but you are supposed to wait until 400 AGL before commencing any turns. Since Chandler is at 280' MSL, it would have been 680' before commencing the turn. Which means, even at the miserly climb rate of the Alarus, it would have been a short time until I would have rolled back left to track toward El Nido VOR(the fix I was cleared to, if I remember correctly).

-Chandler lies under the Shelf Area of the Fresno Yosemite(KFAT) Class Charlie Airspace, which starts at 2500' above Chandler. This ODP turns you TOWARDS the surface area, which looks like it starts a mile or two away from Chandler(in the direction of the 345 degree turn). But I guess if I picked up a clearance on the ground then I am free to go right in the Class C...even before I report airborne. Correct?

-Another weird thing....after departure I saw NO obstacles straight ahead. But in the direction of the turn I saw a tower!

So I just want to get this straight. In VMC, but under an IFR clearance, it was acceptable for me to just do a straight out departure, climb to TPA, then turn toward my first fix? All before reporting airborne?

Hey Flyguy...good to see you still mingling with us piston dudes! And you are right about the ODP at Castle. I am planning to file up to Willows(Nancy's diner!). I am already sulking at having to go to El Nido before embarking Long Haul to Willows(yes, 150 Nm is long haul in an Alarus!). But I have heard usually NORCAL will clear you on course before you get to El Nido. I will be asking Castle tower for a freq change at 100'AGL!

[Louie1975]

And Subpilot you are correct...coming into RW30 it looks like your wings are brushing those tall palm(?) trees that sit there!

[flyguy]

I've never actually had to go all the way to HYP, but somtimes I've made the full 180 before the handoff, and then had to turn around again after I'm cleared on course. If its VMC, the easiest way is to just takeoff VFR and pick up your clearance in the air once you are on course. Have fun in Willows. You'll love Nancy's.

[subpilot]

You are legally allowed to fly any obstacle departure you want. It is your responsibility to provide obstacle clearance. Just inform the controller that you can provide your own obstacle clearance.

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Champ, like Mike said previously I think you should add "If in IFR conditions...", since your Mach 1 eyeballs is an approved method of obstacle avoidance when VMC, at least for Part 91 operations.

Why not practice it.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Champcar

You are expected to fly the ODP if you are not given any other departure instructions. This is your only way of obstacle obstruction.

Originally Posted by SteveC

Champ, like Mike said previously I think you should add "If in IFR conditions...", since your Mach 1 eyeballs is an approved method of obstacle avoidance when VMC, at least for Part 91 operations.

Originally Posted by Champcar

Why not practice it.

I think that's a good idea.

I think you missed the point of my comment though. My post was directed at your "This is your only way of obstacle obstruction." comment, which failed to include what I thought would be a proper disclaimer, specifically "...if in IFR conditions". Visually avoiding obstacles is an acceptable method as well. I was not debating the wisdom of flying ODP's, just the assertion that it is the "only way". Words mean things.

[Champcar]

Well I was hoping people reading it would have some common sense.

[cfii2007]

In regards to SID's. On the NACO chart if it lists takeoff minimums are 2300-2 or STD.....what exactly does that mean????

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

In regards to SID's. On the NACO chart if it lists takeoff minimums are 2300-2 or STD.....what exactly does that mean????

Usually the higher ceiling and vis apply if you can't meet a specified climb gradient.

[fish314]

Originally Posted by cfii2007

In regards to SID's. On the NACO chart if it lists takeoff minimums are 2300-2 or STD.....what exactly does that mean????

The short answer is it means "Or STANDARD", which for civil aircraft is 1/2 statue mile for airplanes with more than 2 engines, and 1 statue mile for airplanes with 2 engines or less.

For MILITARY airplanes, it depends on your command. USAF Air Education and Training command requires 300'-1 or landing minimums, whichever is higher (in most cases). USAF Air Mobility Command required 1600 RVR or 1000 RVR for operational missions.

SOME MORE GOOD IFR TAKE OFF stuff:

Before the first instrument approach into an airfield is approved by NOAA they conduct a survey to determine if an IFR departure is possible. The TERPS guy goes out to the end of the runway and measures a rising slope from the departure end of every runway that goes UP 1 foot for every 40 feet it goes OUT. That's called an Obstacle Identification Surface (OIS).

If nothing penetrates that 40:1 OIS then a diverse departure is authorized, which means that an aircraft can depart the runway using standard take-off weather minimums and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet/Nautical mile on departure. Upon reaching 200' AGL and passed the departure end of the runway, the aircraft can turn in any direction on course.

SO WHAT ABOUT IF THERE ARE OBSTACLES THAT PENETRATE THE OIS?

The first option that the TERPS guy has is called a "screen height". At US Army or Civil fields, the terpster can raise the starting point of the OIS slope up 35 feet from the departure end of the runway. From that point the OIS still goes out 40 feet for every 1 foot up, but since it began 35 feet higher, the obstacle might not penetrate the OIS using a screen height. If it doesn't penetrate NOW, then the terpster doesn't have to publish alternate take-off minimums or departure procedures, which means there will be no "trouble T" at the front of the book (using NACO/DOD/NOAA style books). At US Air Force or US Navy fields, the TERPSter isn't allowed to use a screen height without publishing it. So the upshot is that at a civilian or army field you must always cross the departure end at 35' AGL. (At a JOINT USE field, which has both USAF and civilians, like Charleston, SC or Honolulu INTL, it depends. If any of the approaches were created by USAF or USN, then they will have to list the screen height in the trouble T section if it is required on ANY runway, but if the approaches were all created by the FAA, then no trouble T is required, even if a screen height is used).

The next option that the TERPSter has is requiring a climb gradient greater than the standard 200 feet/NM.

Another option that the TERPSter could use is increasing the take-off weather minimums for that runway. For example, for Part 91 aircraft with 2 engines or less, the STANDARD take off minimum (IFR) is 1 statue mile. But the TERPSter may require weather of 2300-2 to take off on that particular runway. These weather minimums assume that the pilot will see and avoid the obstacle visually BEFORE entering the weather, and are sometimes refered to as SEE AND AVOID MINIMUMS.

The third option for the TERPSter is for him to publish specific departure procedures. These can be published several different ways. They can either be found at the front of the book (NACO style books), or sometimes you'll see a graphical OBSTACLE DEPARTURE PROCEDURE published for a field that will graphically depict how they want you to depart. The graphical ODP will look very similar to a Pilot-Nav SID, except that it will have the words (OBSTACLE) on it.

The fourth option for the TERPSter is to publish a list of low, close in obstacles under the title of TAKE-OFF OBSTACLES. With these, there really is no procedure that the TERPSter could design that would guarantee that you don't hit them, due mostly to the inaccuracy of the navaids, but generally they aren't considered a safety hazard due to being so close to the field and so low. So the TERPster just lets you know that they are out there and then it's up to the pilot to not hit them.

The last option that the TERPster can use is a combination of ANY or ALL of the above methods.

So for example, here's the trouble T at Buckley AFB, in Colorado:

BUCKLEY AFB (KBKF)

AURORA, CO

Rwy 14, 700-1*
* Or standard with minimum climb of 240/NM to
5700.

TAKE-OFF OBSTACLES: Rwy 14: Rising Terrain 5685’
to 5700’ MSL 975’-1355’ from departure end of rwy,

210’-270’ right of centerline.

If you take off on RWY 14, you need to have at least 700-1, and you need to be advised of the rising terrain to the right of centerline for the first third of a mile. USAF users (and possibly some others, I'm not an expert in Part 121 or Part 135 operations) aren't allowed to use the alternate take off minimums (SEE AND AVOID MINIMUMS), so they HAVE to be able to meet 240'/NM instead. They are allowed to do this because of the phrasing "OR STANDARD". In fact, part 91 users could take off with less than 700-1 if they could meet the 240'/NM instead.

And if you couldn't take off IFR on RWY 14, nothing in the above prevents you from departing VFR or departing on the opposite runway. The restrictions are ONLY for IFR DEPARTURES from the LISTED runway.

Now check out MEEKER, CO:

MEEKER, CO

MEEKER

TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS:

Rwy 3, 2000-2.

Rwy 21

,1000-1¼.
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Climb visually within 3
miles southeast of airport to depart to 7400. Climb on
EKR R-113 to 9000, then climbing left turn direct EKR

VORTAC. Depart EKR VORTAC at or above 10500.

In this case, there is no "OR Standard with.." so you MUST have the required weather to take off on that runway, AND you MUST comply with the departure procedure.

Sometimes instead of listing alternate take-off minimums and the phrase "Or standard with minimum climb of ..." it will just say "minimum climb of ..." In that case you must be able to meet BOTH the minimum climb gradient AND the required weather. (AND in that case USAF aircraft wouldn't be authorized to depart from that runway IFR since they aren't allowed to use SEE AND AVOID MINIMUMS!)

[cfii2007]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Usually the higher ceiling and vis apply if you can't meet a specified climb gradient.

We were able to meet the climb gradient through the specified altitude. Thank for the info!!

[Pilot Hopeful]

From the Instrument Procedures Handbook:

Obstacle departure procedures are not assigned by ATC unless absolutely necessary to achieve aircraft separation. It is your responsibility to determine if there is an ODP published for that airport. If you are not given a clearance for a SID or radar vectors and an ODP exists, you must use the ODP. Additionally, ATC expects you to comply with the published procedure unless the weather at your departure airport lends itself to a departure under VFR conditions and you can see and avoid obstacles in the vicinity.

From the AIM (5-2-7.c.1):

Obstacle clearance responsibility also rests with the pilot when he/she chooses to climb in visual conditions in lieu of flying a DP and/or depart under increased takeoff minima rather than fly the climb gradient.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Well I was hoping people reading it would have some common sense.

By common sense do you mean that they should not take the words that you write literally?