Holding Question's

[Champcar]

Had a "debate" today on a few holding questions and wanted to see what yall thought.

First is Teardrop entry, when you reach a minute on your "LARS" heading do you turn 180 degrees to intercept the inbound course, or just turn to intercept to inbound course" I think you turn to intercept the inbound course.

Second is when to turn to your outbound heading. Is is when you get a full flag flip, or when you are in the cone of confusion? I say full flag flip.

It amazes me how complicated students and even instructors can turn holds into.

[ctab5060X]

I would consider your teardrop entry the same as a procedure turn on an ILS or other approach...180 turn, unless you start to intercept the inbound course and can continue the turn past 180 degrees.

I turn to the outbound heading at the full flag flip. This gives me a known reference point, especially if I am not holding by time, but by DME distance. That is just the way I was taught...when you are IMC you can't see where you are, therefore you must utilize every intersection, VOR, marker, etc. to your full advantage.

Just my 2 cents worth. Hope it helps.

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Had a "debate" today on a few holding questions and wanted to see what yall thought.

First is Teardrop entry, when you reach a minute on your "LARS" heading do you turn 180 degrees to intercept the inbound course, or just turn to intercept to inbound course" I think you turn to intercept the inbound course.

Second is when to turn to your outbound heading. Is is when you get a full flag flip, or when you are in the cone of confusion? I say full flag flip.

It amazes me how complicated students and even instructors can turn holds into.

I agree with you about how complex some people make holding. To answer your question, you turn to intercept the inbound course, and it may or may not be 180 degrees depending on wind, altitude etc. The key is not to leave airspace protected by the published or issued hold. You indeed make your turn over the holding fix and as you know, it can be defined by DME, cross radial or other ways. If you are waiting for a flag flip, it seems to me that depending on your altitude, you could be a mile or more beyond the fix before you commence your outbound turn which is not what ATC wants or expects. If the flag is your only indicator, I would say to wait until the flag is deciding between TO / FROM, count to three or four and then turn. The ATC guys will think you are a holding genius.

As a side note, I occassionally see guys announce to ATC that they are entering holding at a certain time before they are actually established. Remember, you are not actually in holding until you hit the holding fix inbound on the holding radial. All the zig zags and wooferdills you do to enter holding do not count as holding. But, you already knew that.....

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by calcapt

As a side note, I occassionally see guys announce to ATC that they are entering holding at a certain time before they are actually established. Remember, you are not actually in holding until you hit the holding fix inbound on the holding radial. All the zig zags and wooferdills you do to enter holding do not count as holding. But, you already knew that.....

AIM 5-3-3(f) says the report should indicate the time and altitude upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared not actually "established".

[Champcar]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

AIM 5-3-3(f) says the report should indicate the time and altitude upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared not actually "established".

Thats what I thought, its when ever you reach the fix, the entry is technically a turn in the hold is it not?

I wonder how wide the cone of confusion is, specially up i Class A.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by calcapt

As a side note, I occassionally see guys announce to ATC that they are entering holding at a certain time before they are actually established. Remember, you are not actually in holding until you hit the holding fix inbound on the holding radial.

There's no such thing as being "established" in a hold. ATC doesn't give a hoot what you're doing in the holding pattern, as long as you stay in the protected area. As MeritFlyer said, the only required report is arrival at a holding fix.

[calcapt]

I stand corrected about the report. My point was that you are not in holding until you have crossed the holding fix inbound. I see pilots that mistake the entry as actually in the hold. Jeez, can't I get by with anything?

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by calcapt

I stand corrected about the report. My point was that you are not in holding until you have crossed the holding fix inbound. I see pilots that mistake the entry as actually in the hold.

I'm still not clear on the significance of this? When do I care when I'm "in holding"?

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I'm still not clear on the significance of this? When do I care when I'm "in holding"?

Because you have to know when you're holding.

[Cptnchia]

Originally Posted by Champcar

Had a "debate" today on a few holding questions and wanted to see what yall thought.

First is Teardrop entry, when you reach a minute on your "LARS" heading do you turn 180 degrees to intercept the inbound course, or just turn to intercept to inbound course" I think you turn to intercept the inbound course.

Second is when to turn to your outbound heading. Is is when you get a full flag flip, or when you are in the cone of confusion? I say full flag flip.

It amazes me how complicated students and even instructors can turn holds into.

I guess I'll be the first to post the smart aleck reply. To answer the first question..Umm, whatever the FMS does is fine with me. As for the second, umm..whenever the FMS thinks I should turn. You know you're in trouble when you get this from the captain. "Hey, why is it doing that?"

[bike21]

Originally Posted by Cptnchia

You know you're in trouble when you get this from the captain. "Hey, why is it doing that?"

LOL! Reminds me of when I was just off IOE and my captain said the same thing. Thankfully, the finer aspects of FMS'nowledge were still floating in my brain. "Good FO! Now stir my coffee!"

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by Cptnchia

I guess I'll be the first to post the smart aleck reply. To answer the first question..Umm, whatever the FMS does is fine with me. As for the second, umm..whenever the FMS thinks I should turn. You know you're in trouble when you get this from the captain. "Hey, why is it doing that?"

If I was giving a "general aviation" checkride to the FMS, I would likely send it back for remedial training pertaining to holding. It stays in the protected airspace...but it makes some ugly maneuvers to do so.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

I'm still not clear on the significance of this? When do I care when I'm "in holding"?

The only thing I can think of is, once established in the hold wind corrected timing for the inbound leg applies. During the entry, an initial one minute or one and one-half minute uncorrected time applies.

Also in regards to the flag reversal...the AIM specifically states that the turn to the outbound leg should occur at the first complete reversal of the to/from indicator. Waiting 3 or 4 seconds afterwards as suggested, may put you in a tight spot with an examiner.

[MidlifeFlyer]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

There's no such thing as being "established" in a hold. ATC doesn't give a hoot what you're doing in the holding pattern, as long as you stay in the protected area. As MeritFlyer said, the only required report is arrival at a holding fix.

Required reports aside, and even though it does not appear in either the AIM or the ATC Handbook (it does appear in the Canadian version of the AIM), ATC will periodically ask a pilot to report "established in the hold." It generally means that the entry maneuvering has been completed. According to one controller I discussed it with, it's a workload reducer:
==============================
We use it from time to time to mark the time that you are established in holding. We then can actually stop radar separation and go into procedural separation if we need to with other traffic.
==============================

There is also an oblique reference in FAA Order 7130.3 (Holding Pattern Criteria) that may be related. It suggests that once an aircraft is established in the holding pattern, the protected area for traffic separation purposes (not obstacle separation), may be reduced:

==============================
2-26. REDUCTION AREAS NOT RELATED TO ENTRY PROCEDURES. Reduction areas may be eliminated as follows:

a. When aircraft enter the holding area from directions other than described in paragraph 2-23, protection of the fix end reduction area may be discontinued after entry is completed and the holding aircraft is established in a racetrack pattern.

b. When aircraft enter the holding area from directions other than described in paragraph 2-24, protection of numbered area 4 may be discontinued after the holding aircraft initially becomes established on the inbound holding course, subsequent to entry.

c. The provisions of paragraph 2-26b also apply to numbered area 3 when numbered patterns 7 and 8 are used at or below 14,000'.

d. No reduction is authorized for obstacle clearance purposes.
==============================

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by MidlifeFlyer

ATC will periodically ask a pilot to report "established in the hold." It generally means that the entry maneuvering has been completed. According to one controller I discussed it with, it's a workload reducer:

I know that ATC will occasionally say that, but I don't think there is a "generally means". I don't think they know what "established" in a hold means either, any more than they know what it means to be established on a course. They just say the words. As for the separation issue, since "established" has no defined meaning in this context, I'm skeptical about that controller's conclusions.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

Also in regards to the flag reversal...the AIM specifically states that the turn to the outbound leg should occur at the first complete reversal of the to/from indicator. Waiting 3 or 4 seconds afterwards as suggested, may put you in a tight spot with an examiner.

Where does the AIM say that? All I see is:

(b) Outbound leg timing begins over/abeam the fix, whichever occurs later. If the abeam position cannot be determined, start timing when turn to outbound is completed.

Abeam the fix would be the zone of ambiguity, not complete reversal.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by tgrayson

Where does the AIM say that? All I see is:

(b) Outbound leg timing begins over/abeam the fix, whichever occurs later. If the abeam position cannot be determined, start timing when turn to outbound is completed.

Abeam the fix would be the zone of ambiguity, not complete reversal.

If the question is when to begin the turn to the outbound leg, the answer is found in AIM 5-3-7(g).

[meritflyer]

This is how I've always taught it (according to my school's SOP).

Timing begins at the flip or wings level, which ever occurs later.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

If the question is when to begin the turn to the outbound leg, the answer is found in AIM 5-3-7(g).

Ok, I read the original question as when when to start timing, not when to turn, but upon re-reading, I do see the OP was asking when to turn. I've never seen any debate on that issue, because the answer is clearly when the first reversal happens, as you say.

Timing, however, should begin abeam the fix, of which the zone of ambiguity is the best indication on a VOR. Wings level should only be used when the abeam is not determinable..

[fish314]

I'm trying to find the reference, but I was taught that station passage was defined as the positive "FROM" indication on a VOR, and therefore, if you are holding off of a VOR, that's the "FIX".

Similarly, the ADF bearing pointer passing through the 90 degree index is station passage on an ADF, and the point where the DME stops decreasing defines station passage on a TACAN (which incidently is why you aren't allowed to hold directly over a TACAN only station).

Now, obviously, if the fix is a radial/DME, then you turn as soon as you hit the fix.

As for when to start TIMING, I was taught that you start timing when you are outbound ABEAM the fix, if you can determine being abeam the fix. If not, then you start timing when you are wings level outbound. So for example, if you were holding North of the 360 radial 10 DME fix off of a VORTAC or VOR/DME, then you turn when you hit the fix, and you would notice that your DME would decrease (assuming you entered from the north heading south). As you are in that turn you would begin timing your outbound leg when you see 10 DME again. If you were holding off of an ADF you'd start your turn when the bearing pointer hit the 90 degree index, and start your timing when the bearing pointer was pointing to whatever 90 degrees from the inbound course was.

[surreal1221]

edit: got my answer.

[exleardriver]

after crossing the vor, i too begin my turn at the first 'complete' indication of a 'to' to a 'from'..we all know that in the 'zone of confusion' that the vor may flag, then showa from then a to then a from..i've seen different receivers act differently, but they will all eventually give a positive 'from', then i turn. on a vor hold, i begin timing when she flips from a 'from' to a 'to' again..and it will remain as a 'to' until i've finished my outbound leg, turned inbound and crossed the vor again - because the inbound holding course is set and as long as i'm on the holding side of the vor, it will always indicate a 'to'. remember - make sure that your students understand that a vor indication is independent of aircraft heading..it's information about its position. make your point by simply getting them established on any vor radial, fly it for a several minutes and them have them make 360 degree turn. they'll see basically no change, certainly no flag flipping or full-scale deflecting that they 'might' expect to see if they still haven't bought into the notion of indications being independent of aircraft heading. it usually makes a good impression and sometimes gives an uncertain student an 'ah ha' moment.